The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Moto2

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I'll answer how I like thank you very much. Waffle and bluster for you, is for me explaining as clearly as possible what's going on for those ( other than you who read the thread ) who may not have a full grasp or any experience of Scottish politics. Nor understanding of pro-indy perspectives.

Pretty much everyone knows that the only way for Scotland to stay in the EU or the Single market IF the UK is not, is independence. The only way for Sturgeon to actually prove it beyond doubt is to come up with even vaguely feasible and credible plans based something similar to a Denmark/Greenland scenario and lay them out to Westminster.

A refusal proves beyond doubt to all Scottish voters that there are no options left other than 1) independence or 2) Leaving the EU/Single market. Scottish Labour who are already on the brink of internal war over this, and the Scottish Lib Dems ( who are massive EU and single market advocates in the rest of the UK ) will finally and painfully be faced with this choice also. The SNP will have Theresa May to thank for that.

This is all dependent on a Hard Brexit which is by no means sure. What will be sure however, is any Holyrood response to it should it happen and all other options are gone. :cool:

Your verbosity is impressive but I couldn't actually find an answer to the question in your reply.

"Do you still think Sturgeon hopes her plan to keep Scotland in the EU is turned down by May et al?"

TrickyTree83

Moto2 wrote: »

Your verbosity is impressive but I couldn't actually find an answer to the question in your reply.

"Do you still think Sturgeon hopes her plan to keep Scotland in the EU is turned down by May et al?"

Looks like it:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/24/spanish-mep-leader-spain-would-oppose-nicola-sturgeon-single/

Clearly haven't been talking with Spanish officials about staying in the single market.

Moto2

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Looks like it:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/24/spanish-mep-leader-spain-would-oppose-nicola-sturgeon-single/

Clearly haven't been talking with Spanish officials about staying in the single market.

That would be quite a setback to the SNP if it's been reported correctly.
They - of course - knew that already but were probably hoping the Spaniards would just maintain a diplomatic silence on it. The spin machine at SNP central is currently working overtime to to put a gloss on it, if it comes up a bit dull, they'll just attack Gonzalez Pons.
Wonder which it'll be?

TrickyTree83

Moto2 wrote: »

That would be quite a setback to the SNP if it's been reported correctly.
They - of course - knew that already but were probably hoping the Spaniards would just maintain a diplomatic silence on it. The spin machine at SNP central is currently working overtime to to put a gloss on it, if it comes up a bit dull, they'll just attack Gonzalez Pons.
Wonder which it'll be?

I don't know how accurate the piece is, but I'd imagine quotes are otherwise they'd be onto them with the suits.

Which makes me want to point this out:

A Scottish Government spokesman said: “Brexit is by far the biggest threat to Scotland’s jobs, prosperity and economy, and that is why we have always been clear that remaining in Europe – and as members of the world’s largest single market – is the best option for our future.

Really?! The biggest? Bigger than leaving the UK?

The amount of mistakes coming out of the SNP of late must be distressing to the pro-indy supporters.

Shakethedisease

Moto2 wrote: »

That would be quite a setback to the SNP if it's been reported correctly.
They - of course - knew that already but were probably hoping the Spaniards would just maintain a diplomatic silence on it. The spin machine at SNP central is currently working overtime to to put a gloss on it, if it comes up a bit dull, they'll just attack Gonzalez Pons.
Wonder which it'll be?

It's not a 'blow' its all strengthening Sturgeon's case for a second referendum. As I said earlier, you're getting too hung up on SNP's proposed plans for staying the Single Market and the UK and being dashed. It's Scottish Labour and Lib Dems this is a blow to, not Sturgeon who would rather Scotland was out of the UK regardless.

Pressed specifically about the First Minister’s proposal that Scotland joins EFTA and the EEA, which would ensure access to the EU single market, he said: “It’s impossible. Scotland, while it is part of the United Kingdom, has to be the same as the UK.

sss555s

kabayiri wrote: »

All this talk about windfarms won't deliver any competitive edge. It's just pie in the sky. That market has moved on.

It's the UK government that has moved on. The UK government has cut subsidy's and is against onshore windfarms making the UK one of the most expensive places to set up a wind farm.
Windfarms are still a good growing sector worldwide.

Scotland has on average 3 times the energy generated on the same equipment in England.

This is a prime example where Scotland can better manage for it's self.

The UK is one of the best locations for wind power in the world, and is considered to be the best in Europe.[1][2] Wind power contributed 11% of UK electricity generation in 2015, and 17% in December 2015.[3] Allowing for the costs of pollution, particularly the carbon emissions of other forms of production, onshore wind power is the cheapest form of energy in the United Kingdom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_Kingdom

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It's not a 'blow' its all strengthening Sturgeon's case for a second referendum. As I said earlier, you're getting too hung up on SNP's proposed plans for staying the Single Market and the UK and being dashed. It's Scottish Labour and Lib Dems this is a blow to, not Sturgeon who would rather Scotland was out of the UK regardless.

What about the SNP lies about Brexit being the biggest threat to Scottish jobs?

Scottish jobs dependent on the UK and at risk from Scottish independence:

http://www.scottisheconomywatch.com/brian-ashcrofts-scottish/2014/06/scottish-jobs-and-the-uk.html

In case you can't be bothered to read it, it's approx. 1 million.

Scottish jobs at risk from hard Brexit:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/06/hard-brexit-could-see-scotland-lose-80000-jobs-and-cost-2000-a-head

In case you can't be bothered to read this, or the URL, it's approx. 80,000.

So if we assume the forecasts for jobs lost as a result of hard brexit in Scotland are 80,000, and that the jobs lost as a result of Scottish independence is 1,000,000. Which is worse?

In the context of the question above, is the SNP lying to the Scottish people by saying:

A Scottish Government spokesman said: “Brexit is by far the biggest threat to Scotland’s jobs, prosperity and economy, and that is why we have always been clear that remaining in Europe – and as members of the world’s largest single market – is the best option for our future.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/24/spanish-mep-leader-spain-would-oppose-nicola-sturgeon-single/

Shakethedisease

This would be a popcorn moment and a half.

The Scottish parliament may have the legal right to block Article 50 entirely

It's time to learn about Section 2 of the Scotland Act of 2016, which says Westminster must get the consent of Edinburgh if it affects 'devolved' matters..


...“Sir David Edward: The formal consequence is this. Under Section 29 of the Scotland Act 1998 the Scottish Parliament is bound by EU law, and, ditto, under Section 57(2) the Scottish Government are bound by EU law. Under the Scotland Bill [2016] that is going through Parliament at the moment, the Sewel convention will be recognised in Section 2 if it becomes an Act.

Therefore, as I see it, you would have to amend the Scotland Act and, therefore, you would have to have legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament.”

And the House of Lords Select Committee on Article 50 published this footnote, which strongly suggests that the consent of the Scottish Parliament would be required:


..But it is complicated. Prof. Mark Elliott of the University of Cambridge thinks Scotland can't block Brexit. But he also previously argued that the government could trigger Article 50 through royal prerogative — and he turned out to be wrong about that

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-scottish-parliament-legal-right-block-article-50-a7438246.html

This is one of the examples I was talking about Tricky. The EU, the Great Repeal Act, any move to take Fishing/Agriculture back or change Human Rights laws in Scotland. Article 50 will actually be the first to be tested in court. Oh and note I'm not saying this article is what is actually going to happen. Just that there are numerous question marks.

Full article at link. Too long to post.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

This would be a popcorn moment and a half.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-scottish-parliament-legal-right-block-article-50-a7438246.html

This is one of the examples I was talking about Tricky. The EU, the Great Repeal Act, any move to take Fishing/Agriculture back or change Human Rights laws in Scotland. Article 50 will actually be the first to be tested in court. Oh and note I'm not saying this article is what is actually going to happen. Just that there are numerous question marks.

Full article at link. Too long to post.

We can talk about these issues.

But lets not pretend that this is what you were talking about regarding repatriation of powers such as fishing and agriculture and abolishing all human rights with no identical replacement being forced on Holyrood by Westminster. No one has ever suggested either of those two scenarios. You claimed they did.

Lets just leave that topic alone and agree to disagree.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

What about the SNP lies about Brexit being the biggest threat to Scottish jobs?

Scottish jobs dependent on the UK and at risk from Scottish independence:

http://www.scottisheconomywatch.com/brian-ashcrofts-scottish/2014/06/scottish-jobs-and-the-uk.html

In case you can't be bothered to read it, it's approx. 1 million.

Scottish jobs at risk from hard Brexit:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/06/hard-brexit-could-see-scotland-lose-80000-jobs-and-cost-2000-a-head

In case you can't be bothered to read this, or the URL, it's approx. 80,000.

So if we assume the forecasts for jobs lost as a result of hard brexit in Scotland are 80,000, and that the jobs lost as a result of Scottish independence is 1,000,000. Which is worse?

In the context of the question above, is the SNP lying to the Scottish people by saying:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/24/spanish-mep-leader-spain-would-oppose-nicola-sturgeon-single/

All those articles are talking about a UK Hard Brexit. And to my recollection it wasn't the SNP that produced the research on job losses.

As always the figures are probably somewhere in the middle. But no one really knows until it happens do they ? And at some point you're going to have to realise and remember that independence is a cornerstone of SNP policy. However, it was Scottish voters who put the SNP in power and voted Remain a few months ago. You keep losing sight of the fact that the SNP didn't get where they are by magic.