The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

Moto2 wrote: »

Yeah, yeah
But why would she hope the proposals (to give Scotland the best deal) are turned down?

So she can turn to Dugdale, Rennie regretfully and say 'sorry, but I really did try...good luck with selling a Hard Brexit and a Tory Government for the foreseeable future to Scottish voters..'

If May actually does go for it, it's win-win. But I think we both know that's probably not on the cards.

Moto2

Shakethedisease wrote: »

So she can turn to Dugdale, Rennie regretfully and say 'sorry, but I really did try...good luck with selling a Hard Brexit and a Tory Government for the foreseeable future to Scottish voters..'

If May actually does go for it, it's win-win. But I think we both know that's probably not on the cards.

So she'd hope it's turned down in order to score political points?

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Tricky let me again state this very slowly and clearly for you. Fishing and Agriculture are already totally devolved to Scotland. But are currently under EU control. Leaving the EU means these will no longer be under EU control, and thus should then automatically be under the Scottish Govt's control.

If Westminster wants them, they're going to have to take back powers from Holyrood and take control back. This will not go down well in Holyrood, nor with a lot of Scots who were told that voting Leave would ensure these powers automatically go to Holyrood.

Do you think Westminster will leave Fishing control in full in the Scottish Govt's hands ?

What on earth are you on about?

I am well aware that Holyrood would get the power back from Brussels which is why I've previously stated that the fishermen in Scotland would be aghast at Sturgeon trying to keep you in it.

No one has ever suggested that Westminster will retake these powers to my knowledge outside of journo's and yourself. And no offence intended but, neither of those opinions really matter on that topic. No one in the UK government has said they will repatriate Scottish fishing rights to Westminster and no one in the Scottish government has said they'll give them away apart from the SNP and Greens.

Go figure.

Edit: I think you've gotten a little confused over what I was saying is imaginary. This notion that the powers will be taken back by Westminster. As I said, it's pure speculation, and that unicorn farm looks more likely to happen.

Shakethedisease

[QUOTE=The Last Username;71659874
Now if you had said "62% of Scots who voted ........." you may perhaps see the distinction?
[/QUOTE]

I did.

remembered that 62% of Scots voters regardless of party affiliations voted to Remain

Shakethedisease

Moto2 wrote: »

So she'd hope it's turned down in order to score political points?

No, the SNP really do want to stay in the Single Market. Dugdale and Rennie want to stay in the Single Market AND the UK. The slightest deviation Sturgeon takes is all over the media with Dugdale and Rennie wailing about independence and the SNP when there are still so many options that could make their 'visions' happen.

Sturgeon is opening options and presenting possibilities on a Westminster platform.. while at the same time confident of letting May firmly and dismissively shut the other Scottish parties options down one by one. If May refuses, then Dugdale and Rennie are going to be in an absolutely terrible position selling a hard brexit and Tory Govts as benefits of staying in the Union.

People are far too obsessed with hating the SNP and shouting down Sturgeon presenting plans.. hah ! never happen she's deluded etc..to see what's happening right in front of them.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

What on earth are you on about?

I am well aware that Holyrood would get the power back from Brussels which is why I've previously stated that the fishermen in Scotland would be aghast at Sturgeon trying to keep you in it.

No one has ever suggested that Westminster will retake these powers to my knowledge outside of journo's and yourself. And no offence intended but, neither of those opinions really matter on that topic. No one in the UK government has said they will repatriate Scottish fishing rights to Westminster and no one in the Scottish government has said they'll give them away apart from the SNP and Greens.

Go figure.

Edit: I think you've gotten a little confused over what I was saying is imaginary. This notion that the powers will be taken back by Westminster. As I said, it's pure speculation, and that unicorn farm looks more likely to happen.

Leadsom has been asked a few times to clarify automatic powers returning to Holyrood by her Holyrood counterpart Fergus Ewing. And hasn't.

Indeed, no such “UK single market” currently exists and, in the event of hard Brexit, establishing an effective and lasting one would entail a large expansion of the reserved powers vested in Westminster. This would see Holyrood lose some of its current powers and miss out on those “repatriated” from Brussels.
Why can we expect Westminster’s authority to expand in this way? In essence, if Holyrood and Westminster are allowed to regulate goods and services separately, obstacles to trade would inevitably be presented if a good or service had to follow different rules on each side of the Tweed..


...Brexit upsets that assumption. To date, the work of ensuring unhindered trade between a devolved Scotland and the rest of the UK has been carried out by the EU. If the UK is to leave the European single market and a UK version is to be erected in its place, Holyrood looks set to lose out. To put it another way: while the cake of potential powers will be larger, Westminster looks primed to seize the biggest slice.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/14921325.Beyond_Brexit__Treat_talk_of____UK_single_market____with_caution/

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Leadsom has been asked a few times to clarify automatic powers returning to Holyrood by her Holyrood counterpart Fergus Ewing. And hasn't.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/14921325.Beyond_Brexit__Treat_talk_of____UK_single_market____with_caution/

Yes and that is the imaginary balls I was referring to. The EU has nothing to do with the UK relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

Why is that journo talking crap? Because Scotland isn't a separate country. The current reserved powers are reserved for a reason. Devolution or no, the UK is a single country rather than a union of 4 as you would prefer to see it. Of course the UK domestic market is homogeneous, integrated, one and the same.

This journalist appears to think the UK isn't a country, that the UK isn't a domestic market unto itself and that it didn't trade freely with one another before or without the EU. It's some of the worst journalism I've seen, including the Huffington Post.

Doesn't it astonish you that this journalist has no idea that trade and industry is already reserved? That power won't be taken away because it was never given in the first place.

You, and he, HAVE to do better than this...

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Yes and that is the imaginary balls I was referring to. The EU has nothing to do with the UK relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

Why is that journo talking crap? Because Scotland isn't a separate country. The current reserved powers are reserved for a reason. Devolution or no, the UK is a single country rather than a union of 4 as you would prefer to see it. Of course the UK domestic market is homogeneous, integrated, one and the same.

This journalist appears to think the UK isn't a country, that the UK isn't a domestic market unto itself and that it didn't trade freely with one another before or without the EU. It's some of the worst journalism I've seen, including the Huffington Post.

Doesn't it astonish you that this journalist has no idea that trade and industry is already reserved? That power won't be taken away because it was never given in the first place.

You, and he, HAVE to do better than this...

The person that wrote this isn't a journo. And his entire point is that if Scotland gets control of Fishing and Agriculture, then there would be two internal markets working within the UK. This is why Westminster would move quickly to take the powers and control back.

Why can we expect Westminster’s authority to expand in this way? In essence, if Holyrood and Westminster are allowed to regulate goods and services separately, obstacles to trade would inevitably be presented if a good or service had to follow different rules on each side of the Tweed.

Alastair MacIver is a Lecturer in Law at Tilburg University, Netherlands

Again, Fishing and Agriculture are entirely devolved to Holyrood currently, but under EU control. Leave proponents up here were headlined in numerous media outlets saying that voting Leave would mean more powers coming back automatically to Scotland. Imagine if they didn't..

The powers were 'given' to Holyrood quite some time ago. I have no idea what balls you yourself are talking about saying they aren't there in the first place. Misinformed at best.

The above will be played out against and alongside fiercely contested and resisted future legislation such as the Great Repeal Bill, changes to Human Rights etc etc. All of which will require Westminster over riding Holyrood's wishes. You could almost call it an SNP wishlist.. again.

The UK is a state made up of two separate countries in a union, a principality and a region. Just in case you'd also forgotten.

Moto2

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No, the SNP really do want to stay in the Single Market. Dugdale and Rennie want to stay in the Single Market AND the UK. The slightest deviation Sturgeon takes is all over the media with Dugdale and Rennie wailing about independence and the SNP when there are still so many options that could make their 'visions' happen.

Sturgeon is opening options and presenting possibilities on a Westminster platform.. while at the same time confident of letting May firmly and dismissively shut the other Scottish parties options down one by one. If May refuses, then Dugdale and Rennie are going to be in an absolutely terrible position selling a hard brexit and Tory Govts as benefits of staying in the Union.

People are far too obsessed with hating the SNP and shouting down Sturgeon presenting plans.. hah ! never happen she's deluded etc..to see what's happening right in front of them.

More waffle and bluster .... it doesn't matter whether or not you think it'll be turned down and the reasons for it

You wrote...

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No. I fully expect anything Sturgeon puts in front of May to be dismissed out of hand.

Sturgeon will certainly be hoping so ! ................

So what you've said is Sturgeon is going to come up with a plan she hopes will be turned down by May?

You later said that was so she could goad her political opponents

Do you still think Sturgeon hopes her plan to keep Scotland in the EU is turned down by May et al?

Feel free to answer either yes or no

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The person that wrote this isn't a journo. And his entire point is that if Scotland gets control of Fishing and Agriculture, then there would be two internal markets working within the UK. This is why Westminster would move quickly to take the powers and control back.

Alastair MacIver is a Lecturer in Law at Tilburg University, Netherlands

Again, Fishing and Agriculture are entirely devolved to Holyrood currently, but under EU control. Leave proponents up here were headlined in numerous media outlets saying that voting Leave would mean more powers coming back automatically to Scotland. Imagine if they didn't..

The powers were 'given' to Holyrood quite some time ago. I have no idea what balls you yourself are talking about saying they aren't there in the first place. Misinformed at best.

The above will be played out against and alongside fiercely contested and resisted future legislation such as the Great Repeal Bill, changes to Human Rights etc etc. All of which will require Westminster over riding Holyrood's wishes. You could almost call it an SNP wishlist.. again.

The UK is a state made up of two separate countries in a union, a principality and a region. Just in case you'd also forgotten.

Rubbish, don't take some lay twisted interpretation. Look at the list of reserved and devolved powers for yourself. Holyrood would be in charge of fishing and agriculture but not trade.

You can control quotas and other issues but not trade, Holyrood has never and hopefully will never be in any control over trade. Therefore your lecturer is talking rubbish. You know it, I know it and everyone else knows it. He's probably a member of a few too many caf!s in Holland if he thinks Holyrood controls trade when we leave the EU.

Human rights? What are you on about now, that's separate from the EU anyway and it hasn't happened.

!!!!ing indy supporters.. You really do take the !!!! with these imaginary ideas.