The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Haha, no no, I'm not supporting this type of dismantling of a nation (re Scotland & UK / iScotland & D&G).

My reason for discussing it is because you appear to think it is ridiculous for Dumfries and Galloway to hold a referendum (advisory or no) on remaining part of the UK should Scotland vote for independence. Yet you think it quite acceptable to say that Scotland should have a vote to become independent from the UK because the UK is leaving the EU.

Can you not see the hypocrisy?

I'll break it down here:

Scotland votes to leave the UK because UK is leaving the EU = Good! Yes, absolutely fine. We won at the 2nd time of asking!

Dumfries and Galloway votes to leave Scotland because Scotland leaves the UK = Bad!! Absolutely not, will never happen. You're part of Scotland and that's that!

That's not what I said at all. I said that D+G joined the Union along with Scotland as a whole and would leave with it. Should they wish to remain or rejoin the UK then they will have to go through the same due political processes that any other region or area that wishes self-determination has to go through, throughout the world. This is likely to take many decades. This is the more likely scenario for D+G seeking independence in order to rejoin or remain in the UK. Not just a couple of councillors coming up with a bit of a wheeze to grab a few headlines.

You fail to recognise that the UK is the nation state you wish to secede from and that if you pursue this agenda and achieve it, then surely the same courtesy should be extended to the people of Dumfries and Galloway to remain part of the UK, in much the same way you're using leaving the EU as a pretext for leaving the UK. The opposite must surely also apply to those regions of iScotland who do not wish to leave the UK and join the EU.

No one is actually stopping them. But it's very unlikely they'll succeed in their efforts via this particular route in the near future. Should a second referendum result in a Yes vote, then D+G will be leaving along with every other area of Scotland. Unless the border is moved to exclude them from a Scottish vote which is also unlikely.

Otherwise why not just give all areas that voted Remain in the last referendum the 'right' to choose to stay in the EU. Or those area's that voted Labour the 'right' to choose not to recognise a Conservative govt in any GE. I'm afraid that isn't how things work in UK. D+G will just have to work with what they've got in the context of our representative democracy systems. Like everyone else and every other area of the UK has to.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Right so if the council of Dumfries and Galloway have an issue being in political union with Holyrood why do they have to suck it up?

Because at the current time, they are unambigiously part of Scotland. So will leave the UK if Scotland does.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Because at the current time, they are unambigiously part of Scotland. So will leave the UK if Scotland does.

do you support the right of the people of D&G to leave scotland if a majority wish to do so.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

do you support the right of the people of D&G to leave scotland if a majority wish to do so.

Sure, as long as you support the right of other areas all over Scotland to leave the UK if a majority wish to do so. Regardless of any referendum result. Fair's fair after all.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Sure, as long as you support the right of other areas all over Scotland to leave the UK if a majority wish to do so. Regardless of any referendum result. Fair's fair after all.

You would be prepared to carve Scotland up into many small parts, some in the UK, some out, in order to have parts of Scotland leave the UK, wouldn't that be a hollow victory? Surely in that situation destitution and failure is for certain.

If it's even remotely like the picture painted in the 2014 referendum then it won't be supporting the right of areas all over Scotland to leave the UK, but for small parts of Scotland to leave Scotland.

You'll end up with the United Republic(?) of Dundee, Glasgow, North Lanarkshire and West Dumbartonshire with the SNP (or what's left of it) in charge I guess. Smart stuff.

elantan

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Sure, as long as you support the right of other areas all over Scotland to leave the UK if a majority wish to do so. Regardless of any referendum result. Fair's fair after all.

Cornwall ... Yorkshire and London for example

Fairs fair after all

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Sure, as long as you support the right of other areas all over Scotland to leave the UK if a majority wish to do so. Regardless of any referendum result. Fair's fair after all.

of course I support the democratic process as being the ONLY legitimate justification for people leaving a sovereign nation

so I support the right of scotland, yorkshire, cornwall, D&G, Skye etc from leaving if that is the democratic wish of the people.
In practice I would perhaps impose a minimum size but they is a matter of detail.

I totally reject your obsession with a vile killing set of warlords that lived hundreds of years ago, as providing a legitimate reason for leaving.

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

Cornwall ... Yorkshire and London for example

Fairs fair after all

Not heard any calls from councils, parliaments or any other form of government, national, regional or local calling for independence of those areas.

If you want all areas of the UK to be able to vote on their allegiances then that must be the case for Scotland under the guise of indy2, fair is fair as you say. Those who vote to leave the UK do so and those who vote to stay in the UK do so.

Or is that not what you want?

.string.

Now here's an idea - how about the UK Government holding Referendums, one for each geographical region of Scotland. Simple choice - Remain or Leave. Result to be determined by the majority of regions voting one way or the other, with the option of those wishing to leave being able to do so if every single one of the others agree That seems to be consistent with SNP's concept of democracy in as much as one can understand it.

TrickyTree83

.string. wrote: »

Now here's an idea - how about the UK Government holding Referendums, one for each geographical region of Scotland. Simple choice - Remain or Leave. Result to be determined by the majority of regions voting one way or the other, with the option of those wishing to leave being able to do so if every single one of the others agree That seems to be consistent with SNP's concept of democracy in as much as one can understand it.

Yes, but if not D&G should not be taken out of the UK against their will! They should also try to hold Holyrood hostage by declaring red lines based on fantasy and have their people claim that they can be self sufficient on Whiskey export duty. What's good for the goose.