The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote:

... Scottish Labour and the Lib Dem's nonsensical tortured bleatings that they want Scotland to be both in the UK and the EU. But that Sturgeon should stop doing anything about the latter. Neither have put forward any plans whatsoever for any way Scotland can stay both in the EU and the UK. Rennie hasn't even bothered waiting for the Eu experts reports both he and Dugdale 100% backed a few weeks ago.....

Because UK and EU membership at thee same time is clearly non-viable; I have not followed either Labour or Lib Dem or SNP pronouncements about it much at all, The two Ls must be deranged but I assume that Sturgeon is applying the usual tactic on such things.

Meanwhile, we await the result of the Government's deliberations, which will presumably be a mixture of concrete expectations and standpoints which are negotiation chips. For a definite knowledge of what Brexit is will have to wait until the end game in a couple of years, assuming that Article 10 is not withdrawn in the meantime, but that would not be until or unless an impasse is reached.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Laughable. But they've made their choice now, and both have just become parties in Scotland which appear to support Brexit along with the Tories. Despite 62% of the vote in Scotland against leaving. Way to go.

so why isn't this showing as an overwhelming (60% min) support for iscotland

AnotherJoe

elantan wrote: »

Where did I ever say soley ? Trying to put words in my mouth don't think so

If you only give one reason "because we control all the levers" what else should I take you to mean? You didn't say "because we control all the levers and X,Y, Z".

I'd be putting words in your mouth if I made up what the other reasons were or even if there were any.

What are they then as you presumably have some? Or am i putting words in your mouth?

Thrugelmir

ruggedtoast wrote: »

They won't have damaged trade with rUK. They will have exactly the same trade deal with rUK as the rest of the European Union.

One that is substantially in their favour.

That depends on the exchange rate fix of the Scottish Groat at the point of entry into the Euro. Once independent Scotland's currency will float. Little point in pegging against the pound. With divergent economic policies etc.

The UK might even find it cheaper to import oil from the North American shale producers or Saudi Arabia. That would hit trade significantly.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Because UK and EU membership at thee same time is clearly non-viable; I have not followed either Labour or Lib Dem or SNP pronouncements about it much at all, The two Ls must be deranged but I assume that Sturgeon is applying the usual tactic on such things.

Oh no, not Sturgeon, the Scottish voters. This sort of infantile politics characterised by both Labour and the Lib Dems in Scotland over recent years is exactly why they are where they are. Both are now 'making clear' that they want Scotland to stay in the EU and the UK, Dudgale is particularly proud of that. Neither have to foggiest idea how to achieve it but are happy to point fingers anyway.

Meanwhile, we await the result of the Government's deliberations, which will presumably be a mixture of concrete expectations and standpoints which are negotiation chips. For a definite knowledge of what Brexit is will have to wait until the end game in a couple of years, assuming that Article 10 is not withdrawn in the meantime, but that would not be until or unless an impasse is reached.

Scottish voters wanting out of the UK aren't going to wait until Brexit negotiations are finished, because by then it will be too late to do anything about the EU. Is also unlikely that the Greens or the SNP will either. They'll hit the ref2 button between them not long after Article 50 is invoked. Especially it it's the 'harder' option of Brexit. Now or never I suppose.

In the very unlikely event that the EU don't want Scotland as a member ( for talkings sake ). Then there's always EFTA/Nordic Council who have themselves shown interest in Scotland joining them. Scotland is just the right size and geographically close and historically connected.

As the UK looks to confirm Brexit and Scotland signals its desire to stay in the EU, there may be a third option ICELANDIC legal expert Katrin Oddsd!ttir has suggested that Scotland might be better off joining the league of small, independent, north Atlantic nations along with her home country and Norway.
The European Free Trade Association (EFTA) is an intergovernmental organisation set up for the promotion of free trade and economic integration to the benefit of its four member states: Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland.
The association manages the EFTA Convention; EFTA’s worldwide network of free trade and partnership agreements, and the European Economic Area (EEA) Agreement for mostly European nations not within the EU trading block.
She also suggested that there is the option of political cooperation with the nations in the Nordic Council; an inter-parliamentary body for cooperation between the Nordic states...


...Oddsd!ttir added that Scotland could have a prosperous future outside both the EU and the UK, as an independent country drawing inspiration from the likes of Norway and Iceland.
She said: “There is a great beauty and a great strength in being a small nation that is truly independent. Which means making your own decisions more freely.”

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/8856/icelandic-legal-expert-says-scotland-should-join-nordics-instead-eu


Independence first though eh.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I haven't once said that the 64% will stop overnight.

I outlined the choice quite clearly.

Risk 64% or risk 11%.

For example, breaking it down even more simply.

Imagine if your entire worldly wealth could be summed up into £100.

You have a choice to make, the choice is gambling, with unknown odds, between £64 on one outcome (iScotland) or gambling £11 on another outcome (the UK status quo).

Which poses the most risk without knowing the odds/probability of success?

And which allows you to continue mostly in the manner to which you've become accustomed should you lose?

Edit: Politics aside, in the choice above there is a safe option and a reckless option. Despite our polar opinions I'm confident you know which is which.

Keep in mind that those figures represent huge figures in the Scottish economy.

That means business, which means jobs, which means tax revenue, which means public spending.

The risk is indeed large as I've pointed out quite a few times.

Is the gain of the reserved powers enough to take such a risk? Ignoring deficits, oil subsidy, Barnett, Whiskey export duty (:D), and everything else in the independence argument.

Just on this one singular point regarding the trade arrangements and the associated risk.

You can't just 'put politics aside' though. So your entire argument falls down. Scotland did not vote out of the EU, and by some margin. There's your politics for you.

Risk ? We'll you Brexiteers have shown Scotland exactly what to do about that. Thank you.

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Scottish voters wanting out of the UK aren't going to wait until Brexit negotiations are finished, because by then it will be too late to do anything about the EU.

That's a very assumptive statement. Until the Scottish electorate know what the future holds. Do you seriously think that they are going to jump overboard into the total unknown en masse. More likely that the SNP, while in power, would wish to influence the negotiations from inside rather than outside. Then pick their own time.

islandannie

elantan wrote: »

I and many like me trust the Scottish government more than we trust either the WM government or the Venezuelian governments

I am really happy that you are so pleased to trust the Scottish government.

Just one little explanation of how they are going to solve the £14.8 billion deficit and I will be right on board to vote for independence.

C`MON you seps give us yoons one cogent reason why we will be better off with independence and we will join you by the hundreds of thousands.

Convince me that i am going to be be better of under indypendence and you will get my vote.

.string.

islandannie wrote: »

I am really happy that you are so pleased to trust the Scottish government.

Just one little explanation of how they are going to solve the £14.8 billion deficit and I will be right on board to vote for independence.

C`MON you seps give us yoons one cogent reason why we will be better off with independence and we will join you by the hundreds of thousands.

Convince me that i am going to be be better of under indypendence and you will get my vote.

You would have lots of levers to play with

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

You can't just 'put politics aside' though. So your entire argument falls down. Scotland did not vote out of the EU, and by some margin. There's your politics for you.

Risk ? We'll you Brexiteers have shown Scotland exactly what to do about that. Thank you.

No no no no no no no!

You're just dodging the question because it's blatantly obvious the Union is a good thing for Scotland in this context.

You can put politics aside. You just don't want to in order to make it convenient to dodge.

When you go to put a cross in a box will you put 64% of your trade at risk for some political ideal? You would take the reckless option? You would see jobs leave, tax revenue leave, business leave and reduced pubic spending further than your favourite Tories would have to cut.

It's illogical. In fact the more one looks at this entire subject the more illogical it becomes. As I said earlier I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on EVERY other aspect of this subject if you could JUST admit it on this.

Just this...