The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Shakethedisease wrote: »

There are no magical growth powers.

Right.

Glad we've cleared that up.

So in that case your entire 2 years spent arguing that it would be materially different if only Scotland had full control of all the economic levers is, as an economist might say, absolute drivel.

Oil is a volatile commodity and GERS is the best estimate we've got while Scotland remains in the Union.

As you've now admitted there are no magical growth powers that would be significantly different for an iScotland versus Scotland in the UK then it's more accurate to say GERS is the best estimate we've got and it wouldn't change much or at all if we left the UK.

you've spent so much time shooting down the economic case over the last few years/rerunning the referendum... that you've sadly neglected every other case for independence there is and put all your eggs in one basket. You've neglected the political case in particular badly.

And what you and every other FreeeeeeeeeDum campaigner fails to understand is that there is no other case for independence.

Without the money to pay for it the "political case" doesn't exist.

Go to the electorate and be honest with them - Indy means massive tax rises - a deep and job destroying recession - and swingeing cuts to benefits and services of a size that would make Osborne blush... and then see how your "political case" stands up.

Go to the electorate and admit the magical growth powers don't exist and that indy means paying much more in taxes and costs of living - for much less in benefits and services.... and then see how many vote for you.

Because we both know that if the indy campaign was honest about those issues and the economic costs of leaving support for indy would fall off a cliff.

And 'the political case' would be of no relevance whatsoever.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Shall we use all three polls rather than cherry picking the ones that suit your point.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9665



As for David Cameron, his Dad may or may not have been up to no good but he appears to be blameless in all of this. In fact this current Conservative Government has done as much as any and more than most to clamp down on tax evasion and avoidance.

I didn't, I posted the ones that were newly online yesterday, which came with info on Scottish subsamples at the time I posted. Note the subsamples part, as it's kind of important to the thread topic.

Shakethedisease

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Right.

Glad we've cleared that up.

So in that case your entire 2 years spent arguing that it would be materially different if only Scotland had full control of all the economic levers is, as an economist might say, absolute drivel.

As you've now admitted there are no magical growth powers that would be significantly different for an iScotland versus Scotland in the UK then it's more accurate to say GERS is the best estimate we've got and it wouldn't change much or at all if we left the UK.

And what you and every other FreeeeeeeeeDum campaigner fails to understand is that there is no other case for independence.

Without the money to pay for it the "political case" doesn't exist.

Go to the electorate and be honest with them - Indy means massive tax rises - a deep and job destroying recession - and swingeing cuts to benefits and services of a size that would make Osborne blush... and then see how your "political case" stands up.

Go to the electorate and admit the magical growth powers don't exist and that indy means paying much more in taxes and costs of living - for much less in benefits and services.... and then see how many vote for you.

Because we both know that if the indy campaign was honest about those issues and the economic costs of leaving support for indy would fall off a cliff.

And 'the political case' would be of no relevance whatsoever.

We've cleared absolutely nothing up from

There are no magical growth powers. Oil is a volatile commodity and GERS is the best estimate we've got while Scotland remains in the Union.

Honesty with taxpayers ? Come on, that's what unionists, the media and every single other political party in the UK have been doing on a blanket basis for years now to the Scottish public. WE KNOW ALL THIS. Everything you've said has been said 1000's of times before. It's not as if the SNP have had much in the way of media support in order to get anything to the contrary out there anyway.

However, if a Brexit does happen it won't stop people like you completely disregarding all of the above and reconsidering independence anyway. GERS or no GERS. This is my point. It's not about freeeeedum. It's about how political events can sway even the most staunch unionist stalwarts. Like yourself for example.

Likewise in 2020 if there is a Conservative govt re-elected. Those reconsidering will not be people like you. It'll be older Labour No voters for whom GERS also, will not make a tiny jot of difference compared to the thought of Boris Johnson, or George Osborne in charge for a further five years or even worse, beyond.

You know all this too. I also think you know more than anyone right now just how relevant the political case for independence continues to be.

Thursday, April 7, 2016

Constituency ballot :
SNP 52% (-2)
Labour 21% (+1)
Conservatives 16% (n/c)
Liberal Democrats 6% (-1)

Regional list ballot :
SNP 44% (+2)
Labour 19% (+1)
Conservatives 16% (-2)
Greens 10% (n/c)
Liberal Democrats 6% (n/c)
UKIP 4% (-1)

elantan

It's been fun watching the Labour ppp school debacle... the media have even managed to make it a SNP bad story ... Must've contorted themselves into some shape to get it out

And in other parts of the media there's very little mention of who ordered the schools built, unlike the new FRB where the blame for the crack constantly mentioned the SNP

The media can be so much fun to watch sometimes

Shakethedisease

elantan wrote: »

It's been fun watching the Labour ppp school debacle... the media have even managed to make it a SNP bad story ... Must've contorted themselves into some shape to get it out

And in other parts of the media there's very little mention of who ordered the schools built, unlike the new FRB where the blame for the crack constantly mentioned the SNP

The media can be so much fun to watch sometimes

They're the only thing keeping Scottish Labour and 'good old Ruth' afloat. This PPI thing as well as Nicola pinning down Ruth on tuition fees at the leaders debate have come at the worst possible time for them.

Have to say that I'm surprised at the likes of Loki and Mike Small ( BellaCaledonia ) not seeing that they're being played as useful idiots in order to split the vote and deny the SNP a majority. A majority that's needed if there's to be a future indy ref. Pure stupidity from 'pro-indy' advocates imo. Arguing about who is or isn't being radical or left enough when they should be concentrating fire on the Tories and Labour right now. Is true what they say about the left always destroying themselves with infighting.

Tromking

Genuine question here.
Putting any Holyrood SNP and Labour administrations aside. Any comment on the School buildings issue being seen as an argument against Education being devolved to Scotland?

molerat

Tromking wrote: »

Genuine question here.
Putting any Holyrood SNP and Labour administrations aside. Any comment on the School buildings issue being seen as an argument against Education being devolved to Scotland?

More a question of brown envelopes I would have thought. Very little to do with "Scotland" at all. Edinburgh council Building Control have a lot to answer for.

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

Genuine question here.
Putting any Holyrood SNP and Labour administrations aside. Any comment on the School buildings issue being seen as an argument against Education being devolved to Scotland?

The Scottish education system, like the legal system was never devolved. Keeping them separate was part of the agreement in the Act of Union 1707.

PFI's were a Labour 'thing'.

kabayiri

Shakethedisease wrote: »

...
PFI's were a Labour 'thing'.

John Major actually. So they precede even New Labour.

No major party promised to ditch the use of PFI since though. They must all like the idea of paying for things on the never never.

Shakethedisease

kabayiri wrote: »

John Major actually. So they precede even New Labour.

No major party promised to ditch the use of PFI since though. They must all like the idea of paying for things on the never never.

Depends what you mean by major party I suppose.

June 24, 1999
MSPs will debate their first Opposition motion today when the SNP will seek to embarrass Labour into forming an alliance with the Tories over a call to scrap the private finance initiative (PFI), writes Murray Ritchie.

https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-23737636.html

October 8th, 2007
While dozens of sizeable PPP projects are sprouting up across Scotland – including 11 new secondary and primary schools across the Highlands in a partnership between Highland Council, Morrison Construction and Noble Fund Managers – the flood of new projects has become a trickle since Salmond’s party gained power on 3 May.

http://www.ianfraser.org/bridging-finance-salmond-rewrites-pfi-rule-book/

They were scrapped in Scotland shortly after in favour of these which are still on the never-never. But in a far more sensible way.

The Non-Profit Distributing (NPD) programme was developed as an alternative to, and has since superseded, the traditional Private Finance Initiative (PFI) model in Scotland and is being used to fund projects in three main sectors – Further Education, Health and Transport.

http://www.scottishfuturestrust.org.uk/our-work/funding-and-finance/non-profit-distributing/

But in this particular story, it's the desperation of the Scottish media NOT to mention Scottish Labour that's providing all the laughs ( though the story itself is a serious one ). We are all well aware that PFI's were a Labour thing when these schools and hospitals were built. Even worse that councils were forced to use them, while Scottish Labour were sending billions BACK to Westminster under Jack McConnell.