The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

zagubov

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

To play devils advocate, what if you got your independence, then sentiment changes after the economic disaster and the prevailing feeling is that you want to re-join the UK, will you hold yet another referendum to secede your independence?

After all, people can change their minds.

That's up to the Scots and the rest of the UK. I'd be all in favour of a new union as I've said many times.
One that includes an English parliament.

We've evolved into a union where the biggest partner decides all the big decisions for the smaller partners, and then acts surprised when they show doubts.

TrickyTree83

zagubov wrote: »

That's up to the Scots and the rest of the UK. I'd be all in favour of a new union as I've said many times.
One that includes an English parliament.

We've evolved into a union where the biggest partner decides all the big decisions for the smaller partners, and then acts surprised when they show doubts.

That wasn't what I asked. Just if you would allow a vote to re-join the union, not on what terms.

But ok.

You can see the problem with your own p.o.v I would imagine. It quite literally would be a neverendum depending on mob rule.

zagubov

robin61 wrote: »

I am saying that after only two or three years we should not be having yet another referendum driven by a part of the UK which represents less than 10% of the population and of that 10% probably less than half support this. Yet the consequences have a destabilising impact on the whole of the UK and therefore should be a once in a generation occurrence and only then if there are very compelling reasons for it.

Having a General Election every 5 years where the whole of the UK gets a vote is not comparing like with like. There is a legal requirement to have an election every 5 years. There is not any legal requirement to let the SNP hold referendums whenever they want to.

The Scots may yet decide this is such a compelling reason. TBH, I was surprised at the disparity between the votes in England and in Scotland; not so much that the Scots were pro-EU but that they were so much more pro-EU than England, particularly the North, the West, Wales etc.

But more fool me, I thought the rest of England would vote like we did in London. I wouldn' be surprised if the Brexit decision was a shock to the majority of the country (I don't know if that's been surveyed, can somebody provide a link)

TrickyTree83

zagubov wrote: »

The Scots may yet decide this is such a compelling reason. TBH, I was surprised at the disparity between the votes in England in Scotland; not so much that the Scots were pro-EU but that they were so much more pro-EU than England, particularly the North, the West, Wales etc.

But more fool me, I thought the rest of England would vote like we did in London. I wouldn' be surprised if the Brexit decision was a shock to the majority of the country (I don't know if that's been surveyed, can somebody provide a link)

It is not quite as clear cut as that though.

Judging by the campaign tactics of the SNP it's likely that a number of the remain voters in Scotland voted as such to have another chance at a 2nd independence referendum. The evidence for the campaign is there, afaik there are no surveys/statistics showing the number who wanted to leave the EU who swung to vote remain in order to take that chance.

robin61

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

You could say the same thing about the EU referendum for the UK.:)

You could but anyone in their right mind would not want to see a Brexit referendum every two or three years with all the uncertainty it creates. We have a result it needs to be accepted and dealt with.

robin61

zagubov wrote: »

The Scots may yet decide this is such a compelling reason. TBH, I was surprised at the disparity between the votes in England in Scotland; not so much that the Scots were pro-EU but that they were so much more pro-EU than England, particularly the North, the West, Wales etc.

But more fool me, I thought the rest of England would vote like we did in London. I wouldn' be surprised if the Brexit decision was a shock to the majority of the country (I don't know if that's been surveyed, can somebody provide a link)

Some have suggested that many SNP supporters voted tactically to give the SNP an opportunity to call for another referendum. Far be it from me to suggest people could be so devious but maybe the Scots are not as pro EU as you think. Plenty of them did not even bother to vote at all and there was still a substantial leave vote.

whether or not there should be another referendum is not just a matter for the Scots to decide it impacts us all and we should not be putting up with a neverendum. The Conservatives made it clear before the 2014 vote that there would be an in / out referendum should they win the next GE. If the Scots had such a huge issue they should have voted to leave. But of course that would have meant them leaving the EU and the UK.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

robin61 wrote: »

Some have suggested that many SNP supporters voted tactically to give the SNP an opportunity to call for another referendum. Far be it from me to suggest people could be so devious but maybe the Scots are not as pro EU as you think..

Yes - but the suggestion is they voted tactically to leave the EU not stay in it - hence why Sturgeon appealed for them not to do that.

Only 27% of Scottish Conservative voters at the last election voted to leave the EU, and only 17% of Scottish Labour.

The SNP voters were at 29% to leave the EU.

Pretty tough to make your theory stack up when more SNP supporters voted to leave the EU than Scottish Tories did....

robin61

zagubov wrote: »

Y After all, you don't seem to think people can't change their minds (or if they do, that's tough for them).

Life is full of examples of where you don't t get to change your mind whenever it suits.
If I vote in a GE I don' t get to change my mind for 5 years
When I exchanged contracts and moved into the house I bought I could not change my mind.
I do not expect to be able to change my mind on the EU vote
When I buy certain good and services I get a cooling off period but then I don' t get the right to change my mind.

Changing you mind whenever you want impacts others. Don' t be surprised if they then don' t want to put up with it.

TrickyTree83

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Yes - but the suggestion is they voted tactically to leave the EU not stay in it - hence why Sturgeon appealed for them not to do that.

Only 27% of Scottish Conservative voters at the last election voted to leave the EU, and only 17% of Scottish Labour.

The SNP voters were at 29% to leave the EU.

Pretty tough to make your theory stack up when more SNP supporters voted to leave the EU than Scottish Tories did....

The Scottish result is tainted because there was tactical voting, because caveats for an independent Scotland were placed onto the outcome. Nowhere else in the UK did this take place. Just Scotland.

So claiming "Scotland voted to remain" has diminished validity, you cannot possibly know the true intentions of 100% of the remain vote (or leave for that matter). So all you can say with any degree of accuracy is that the result is tainted and any sweeping generalisations made on the back of it must also have their validity brought into question.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

robin61 wrote: »

You could but anyone in their right mind would not want to see a Brexit referendum every two or three years with all the uncertainty it creates. We have a result it needs to be accepted and dealt with.

The chances of the leave camp just shutting up and accepting the result had they lost is precisely zero. (See Scotland for precedence on that matter)

You don't see any political party losing an election and saying, "ah well, we'll spend the next 5 years being quiet and supporting our opponents"...

Of course not.

They agitate, hold the opposition to account, try to obstruct the parts of their agenda they disagree with, and generally do whatever they can to get the general public to change their minds by the next election.

Anyone that thinks this matter is settled for the long term is dreaming.

There will be a significant push, supported by almost half the population of Britain, to delay, cancel, water down, avoid, or in later years reverse any Brexit.

And as for Scotland, if the proposed Brexit doesn't look a lot like what we have now, in terms of single market access and free movement, that'll be enough to push Indy over the line.

If you force us to choose between the UK and the EU Scotland will choose the EU....

So if May doesn't want her legacy to be the break up of the UK she'll go for Brexit-Light.