The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

.string.

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You seem to think Scotland is sovereign. It's not you know.

There's no legal course of action the Scottish government can take to gain independence without the consent of the UK government short of asking the UN to recognise them, how long do you think that's going to take.

I think you need to accept it's not going to be a re-run of Stirling where Scotland dominates all. You're 5 million people, the UK government will absolutely prefer negotiating with the EU before Scotland and then put the deal we get to the Scottish people at that point and no earlier. It plays into the UK governments hands, it sets out the real options to the Scottish people and allows the possible breakup of the Union to be done in an orderly fashion if it comes to that. The UK government will not be pandering to the whims of Scottish nationalism whilst they're trying to sort out leaving the EU, it makes no sense for them to do so. Scotland isn't the only group of people affected by the breakup of the Union, despite what Scottish nationalists may think. And if the relationship is so poisonous now I'd guess they would favour the people they do represent, i.e. rUK.

I would expect no less from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland if England was in that position.

Yes I agree, it is is not in the interests of the UK to agree to SNP demands or make life easy for the master plan that Shakey has outlined.

A valid case can therefore be made for delaying any future referendum, if there is to be one, namely that it is in the interests of Scotland to know what both options hold for them and also in the interests of the UK as a whole. That is a perfectly justifiable stance to take and would get some resonance I'm sure.

In ny view the only reason the SNP have for an early referendum is to prey on people's fears and stir up (yet again) hatred to get the result they want before the reality of the choice comes into focus in people's minds (i.e. no EU Membership for years after a long period of penury).

A Westminster backlash in favour of rUK? Yes I think you are right. That may be what SNP want to provoke (sorry, I mean that is what they want to provoke). But that would not be in Scotland's interests either.

mwpt

mrginge wrote: »

Do you expect the Scottish people to vote to leave the UK before they have an answer to what actual model they are going to be leaving?

What will happen if the vote is to go but then the new rUK model is actually better than expected? How will the people of Scotland react to that?

Maybe roughly the same as the people of the UK who had no idea what they were voting for when choosing to leave the EU.

You guys are massive, massive hypocrites.

mrginge

mwpt wrote: »

Maybe roughly the same as the people of the UK who had no idea what they were voting for when choosing to leave the EU.

You guys are massive, massive hypocrites.

I'm just asking the question. I don't know why you're getting all snotty about it.

It's clear that the scots were unwilling to take a leap into the unknown on the EU question, so I'm just wondering why they will take a leap into the unknown on the indy2 question.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

As someone once said 'Scotland is in a union, not a suicide pact'. All unions are dissolvable as the referendum result on 23rd June more than proves. The UK Govt doesn't need to pander to anything, England and Wales have decided to leave the EU. Scotland wants to stay. If that means dissolving the UK because more people ( not the SNP, people ) in Scotland wish to remain in the EU rather than the UK then ultimately, that's exactly what's going to happen.

I fail to see what your problem is. It's clear that most in England and Wales prioritised leaving the EU over the possible ramifications this would have constitutionally in the UK. And that's fine. But it works both ways in terms of political priorities. Scotland might have differing views on the EU.

That it seems the best reason you can come up with for Scotland staying in the UK and being taken out of the EU is 'well we won't allow a referendum for fear of the result' says it all really. If a majority Scots want to leave the UK then there is little point in the UK keeping them there anyway.

You've changed what you originally posted so I'll respond to the new content.

My position that Scotland would be worse off as a member of the EU and that a referendum probably won't happen doesn't blur the facts that untangling the union of England and Scotland will take longer than extricating ourselves from the EU and that the interests of the rest of the UK must be respected in the same way the views of the Scottish people must also be respected. To not respect the views of the remainder of the union is unreasonable.

With that in mind it makes sense for the sovereign power (the UK government) to hold off any further options on Scottish independence, especially since the last vote is still valid and knowledge of the EU referendum was available at that time, until the UK has finished leaving the EU. Not before as you and probably other Scottish nationalists would like.

Your position - and correct me if I'm wrong - appears to be that you want a Scottish independence referendum before the UK triggers article 50, before the UK ratifies any deal with the EU or other countries in the world purely with the aim of remaining in the EU.

However as things currently stand, remaining in the EU is not on the table, the SNP may be working furiously in the background to try to achieve it and obviously has some support within the EU for its stance but that support is not unanimous despite what you may like to think. So not only are you conveniently ignoring EU opponents to the Scottish joining the EU as an independent nation but you are ignoring your kith and kin in the UK by telling everyone what you want (as is Nicola) and be damned to the rest of us when the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU. If the UK government holds all the legal cards it seems to be almost odds on that the UK government will do what is in the best interests of the UK government with regards to Brexit and iScotland.

You're also ignoring me. You stated that:

"the best reason you can come up with for Scotland staying in the UK and being taken out of the EU is 'well we won't allow a referendum for fear of the result' says it all really"

Whilst I do believe you won't get another legally binding referendum, I've said so much more than that because I believe that Scottish nationalists and the SNP are misleading the Scottish public. Supporters of Scottish independence on this thread have failed time and time again to acknowledge the problems (I bullet pointed them earlier on), they fail to acknowledge the underhanded manner of the Remain vote as engineered by Nicola Sturgeon and simply reframe arguments to avoid answering these issues or ignore them entirely.

Some independence supporters will hollar "Reverse Greenland", without acknowledging the constitutional issues with that solution where the UK will have primacy over the Scottish government who would hold a veto on the EU commission.

Some will hollar full independence without acknowledging the protracted length of time it will take to seperate Scotland from the rest of the UK and how by that time the UK will be out of the EU, therefore Scotland will need to re-apply, unless EU agreement can be reached to bring Scotland in without application. That would require unanimous agreement across the EU. That's a massive "if" on which Scottish nationalist plans hinge.

Some say that Scotland will poach industry from the UK, but give no time to the flaw in that there will be a non-EU land border that must be navigated for trade over road and rail. Or that Scotland may have to raise taxes in order to pay for their welfare state and social programs possibly making them less competitive to Ireland or perhaps even the UK.

Every time it's blue sky prophecy and when any of it is called into question it appears the questions just fade away into obscurity because it's not convenient to answer them.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

The nation of Scotland surrendered its sovereignty,

Then so did the nation of England. The United Kingdom, the clue is in the name.

which is the whole issue we're talking about here. So there's no power in Scotland to secede from the UK without the UK government approving it unless Scotland goes to the UN for recognition under self-determination rules.

They'll call a referendum. If it's won, then Westminster will recognise it, since there is absolutely no point in Westminster doing otherwise.

In the situation you describe you appear to think what's good for Scotland is what's good for the UK, but that's not true. Regardless of the steps Holyrood takes to prepare it's not going to happen until the UK is ready for it to happen since there's 2 parties in this argument and the rules are not set out like they are in article 50.

It will happen when Holyrood votes to put a referendum to the Scottish people.

The fairest option for all would appear to be for the UK to leave as a whole (as that was what was on the ballot paper) and then the option via referendum of the current UK status outside the EU or re-joining the EU after Scottish independence.

The above isn't fair to Scotland, who voted with a majority to remain and without interruption of their EU citizenships and the rights that go with it.

Obviously Nicola is going to want to have her cake and eat it. However I would think since Scots voted to stay in the UK knowing a Tory manifesto had an EU in/out referendum in it, and the Scottish government promised to abide by the result of the 2014 independence referendum there will be little appetite to do this on the SNP's terms only.

That's not what Ruth Davidson and BetterTogether with most of the weight of the UK media behind them were telling Scots just before the Scottish referendum in 2014.

Edit: Do you really think it's unreasonable for the UK government to consider 60 million of its citizens that will remain in the UK more important than the needs of 5 million who want to leave? Or should they be equal, in which case it'll happen when the UK as a whole is ready. I don't recall any other people in the Union getting an option on independence recently, yet you're saying the UK government telling the Scottish government to wait until everything is settled is unreasonable?

I think if England and Wales want out then they should leave. If Scotland wants to stay in the EU then they should stay. If there is no way that Scotland can be in a union with both the EU AND the UK then the Scottish people should take measures to choose which one they prioritise.

With all due respect, your argument appears to be full of holes and your position is purely Scottish nationalist in every aspect discussed so far with little regard for anyone else you share the Union with.

We shared two unions up until 23rd June. Scotland seemingly wanted both. Scots voters will now have to choose one over the other. Relucantly I'm sure in a fair amount of cases.. but they will have to choose.

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

If the EU give the green light then it's looking likely it will be the EU.

The EU isn't going to give any green lights. Spain will veto any fast track entry. Scotland will have to go through the same qualification process as everyone else. To start with Scotland needs to build the infrastructure to underpin independence. How far has that progressed?

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Then so did the nation of England. The United Kingdom, the clue is in the name.

They'll call a referendum. If it's won, then Westminster will recognise it, since there is absolutely no point in Westminster doing otherwise.

It will happen when Holyrood votes to put a referendum to the Scottish people.

The above isn't fair to Scotland, who voted with a majority to remain and without interruption of their EU citizenships and the rights that go with it.

That's not what Ruth Davidson and BetterTogether with most of the weight of the UK media behind them were telling Scots just before the Scottish referendum in 2014.



I think if England and Wales want out then they should leave. If Scotland wants to stay in the EU then they should stay. If there is no way that Scotland can be in a union with both the EU AND the UK then the Scottish people should take measures to choose which one they prioritise.

We shared two unions up until 23rd June. Scotland seemingly wanted both. Scots voters will now have to choose one over the other. Relucantly I'm sure in a fair amount of cases.. but they will have to choose.

And again you fail to recognise that the question asked on the ballot paper was whether or not the UK should remain in the EU or should it leave.

It said nothing, absolutely nothing about Scotland.

Why is this absolute fact ignored?

Scotland didn't vote to remain in the EU, Scotland voted to keep the UK in the EU. The UK comprises of more citizens that just Scotland, although your views appear to contradict that.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Then so did the nation of England. The United Kingdom, the clue is in the name.

completely agree, the UK government is sovereign, why do you appear to be turning this into England vs Scotland? I haven't.

They'll call a referendum. If it's won, then Westminster will recognise it, since there is absolutely no point in Westminster doing otherwise.

They may well recognise it, I don't think they will, but no one really knows the truth. If it does take place the UK government has other citizens to consider also.

It will happen when Holyrood votes to put a referendum to the Scottish people.

It can only happen when the UK government recognises it or if the UN recognise self-determination, no other scenario is possible. You even said it requires Westminster to recognise it earlier on, so Holyrood can call it but it can't secede itself.

The above isn't fair to Scotland, who voted with a majority to remain and without interruption of their EU citizenships and the rights that go with it.

They need to try to be fair to all, and a snap dissolution of the Union isn't in the interests of the remainder of the UK.

That's not what Ruth Davidson and BetterTogether with most of the weight of the UK media behind them were telling Scots just before the Scottish referendum in 2014.



She was correct at the time was she not? How could she possibly have foreknowledge of an EU in/out referendum result to claim that staying in the UK would result in leaving the EU when it was obviously clear that Scottish membership of the EU in 2014 was absolutely dependent on membership of the UK. It's just twisting what she said out of context to suit a narrative.

I think if England and Wales want out then they should leave. If Scotland wants to stay in the EU then they should stay. If there is no way that Scotland can be in a union with both the EU AND the UK then the Scottish people should take measures to choose which one they prioritise.

Again, it was a UK referendum. The names England, Wales, Northern Ireland or Scotland did not appear on the ballot paper. Why is this so difficult to understand?

We shared two unions up until 23rd June. Scotland seemingly wanted both. Scots voters will now have to choose one over the other. Relucantly I'm sure in a fair amount of cases.. but they will have to choose.

Replies in red.

.string.

mwpt wrote: »

Maybe roughly the same as the people of the UK who had no idea what they were voting for when choosing to leave the EU.

You guys are massive, massive hypocrites.

I don't know who you mean by "you Guys" but I plead not guilty. I too think the British Public were sold a fuzzy un-thought-out idea of what Brexit might be with no facts to back it up and relying on jingoism, xenophobia (I refer to distrusting Europeans there, Immigration is there as well but that is not what I'm referring to) and were gullible to boot.

So I am quite consistent because I think the SNP are exactly the same in their separation agenda --

For example having no realistic detail of the future which they are proposing and basing their promises of Utopia on ludicrous assumptions, calling economic warnings not credible, decrying the expertise of experts, denouncing "Project Fear", and calling into question the honesty and patriotism of those that give the warnings. Then there is the ambieparanoically claiming again and again that Scotland is ignored, deliberately claiming to be democratically disadvantaged and always outvoted, when in fact occupying a greatly advantaged position in the UK (like the UK had/has in the EU).

So there are distinct parallels. Scotland was not fooled the first time though and will not be fooled again.

But the "Remainers" are pulling together and will get the damn thing to work.


@Shakey - your remark of the UK not being able to ignore a Referendum are laughably naive; if the SNP try to do that they will run into difficulties. There are so many ways to counter that tactic, including agreeing with the conditions that ..............

But note I say IF,.

mwpt

.string. wrote: »

I don't know who you mean by "you Guys" but I plead not guilty. I too think the British Public were sold a fuzzy un-thought-out idea of what Brexit might be with no facts to back it up and relying on jingoism, xenophobia (I refer to distrusting Europeans there, Immigration is there as well but that is not what I'm referring to) and were gullible to boot.

So I am quite consistent because I think the SNP are exactly the same in their separation agenda --

For example having no realistic detail of the future which they are proposing and basing their promises of Utopia on ludicrous assumptions, calling economic warnings not credible, decrying the expertise of experts, denouncing "Project Fear", and calling into question the honesty and patriotism of those that give the warnings. Then there is the ambieparanoically claiming again and again that Scotland is ignored, deliberately claiming to be democratically disadvantaged and always outvoted, when in fact occupying a greatly advantaged position in the UK (like the UK had/has in the EU).

So there are distinct parallels. Scotland was not fooled the first time though and will not be fooled again.

But the "Remainers" are pulling together and will get the damn thing to work.


@Shakey - your remark of the UK not being able to ignore a Referendum are laughably naive; if the SNP try to do that they will run into difficulties. There are so many ways to counter that tactic, including agreeing with the conditions that ..............

But note I say IF,.

Your view is consistent and fairly aligned with my own. I do not support an independent Scotland because I don't think nationalism trumps well being in their case. It seems that many Scots (not all) who want independence simply do not care about the economic arguments or any potential pitfalls after independence. It is independence first and foremost and dealing with consequences later.

But I was referring to certain leave EU voters who now argue vigorously against granting Scotland the same right to vote to leave a union that they themselves have just enjoyed in the form of the EU referendum. The same certain posters argue on technicalities because the general moral sense of their case is bankrupt. They are hypocrites.