The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

mollycat wrote: »

Then?.....Absolutely nothing that's meaningful

SNP call an illegal "referendum" that all sensible NO voters opt out from leaving a pointless YES "victory" after a turnout of circa 40%.

Back to square 1; independence voters continue to vent unfounded, grudge/unfairness whilst most Scots continue to enjoy the fiscal benefits from remaining in the UK, (and avoid being out of the UK and the EU) and carry on regardless.

So, no. Not really "moving along nicely", from a separatist's viewpoint at all.

But you're becoming the minority view in Scotland. 'Independence supporters' are now mainstream and outnumbering 'Union supporters'. Same with referendum supporters.

Majority for independence - CHECK
Majority in favour of holding an independence referendum by 2021 - CHECK
Majority who think maintaining EU membership is more important than staying part of the UK - CHECK
Majority who think Brexit strengthens the case for independence - CHECK
Majority who think Brexit makes independence more likely - CHECK
Majority who predict a second independence referendum would result in a Yes win - CHECK
Nicola Sturgeon the most popular politician -CHECK

Boris got his bounce in Scotland. Unfortunately it was to bounce independence support upwards. Scottish Labour voters once they started shifting to supporting breaking away from Westminster were always going to be key. They now number a full 40% as Yes voters. One poll etc etc. But it does fit into the upwards pattern lately.

I guess there'll be a court case at some point. But legal power is one thing... Political power and the majority view of the Scottish electorate is quite another. And in any case, any legalities will start off in Edinburgh ( Court of Session ) rather than in the UK Supreme Court. The Scottish Parliament is currently asking to hold an advisory referendum, not for independence itself. Both are very different things also legally. All talk of 'illegal' referendums is false media driven narrative.

What I will say from my own take at the moment is that there seems to be a marked shift from SNP MP's, MSP's and spokespersons. They've stopped coming out so much with bland yawn inducing 'against Scotland's will' stuff. And are now urging folks to get out there and set up Yes stalls and get involved right now in an as yet hypothetical independence campaign (?). People are quite puzzled by it since there's no date or anything. However the SNP don't seem to think there's much time before something happens on the ref front. Nor time for an extended campaign either.

Maybe Boris will just cut Scotland and NI loose eh ? :cool:

paparossco

Tromking wrote: »

When does GERS come out?
That should puncture a few dreams on here.

Wednesday 21st August 2019 so not long. Should be interesting, will the impact Brexit is having on the economy reflect in GERS.....

mollycat

Shakethedisease wrote: »

But you're becoming the minority view in Scotland. 'Independence supporters' are now mainstream and outnumbering 'Union supporters'. Same with referendum supporters. Boris got his bounce in Scotland. Unfortunately it was to bounce independence support upwards. Scottish Labour voters once they started shifting to supporting breaking away from Westminster were always going to be key. They now number a full 40% as Yes voters. One poll etc etc. But it does fit into the upwards pattern lately.

I guess there'll be a court case at some point. But legal power is one thing... Political power and the majority view of the Scottish electorate is quite another. And in any case, any legalities will start off in Edinburgh ( Court of Session ) rather than in the UK Supreme Court. The Scottish Parliament is currently asking to hold an advisory referendum, not for independence itself. Both are very different things also legally. All talk of 'illegal' referendums is false media driven narrative.

What I will say from my own take at the moment is that there seems to be a marked shift from SNP MP's, MSP's and spokespersons. They've stopped coming out so much with bland yawn inducing 'against Scotland's will' stuff. And are now urging folks to get out there and set up Yes stalls and get involved right now in an as yet hypothetical independence campaign (?). People are quite puzzled by it since there's no date or anything. However the SNP don't seem to think there's much time before something happens on the ref front. Nor time for an extended campaign either.

Maybe Boris will just cut Scotland and NI loose eh ? :cool:

Most of this is opinion, presented, (as usual), as fact.

People are interested in the money in their pocket, having a free at source NHS, the type of economy that can support spending on benefits, pensions and infrastructure.

I don't think people are so interested in some far fetched notion that Scotland could magically leave the UK and join the EU without huge trauma to the economy, (people like yourself may think this is a price worth paying to "manage our own affairs ".

Independence would probably be tolerable for those who are reasonably well off, those with sought after skills who can move elsewhere, or those (like me), who are too old for it to matter much.

Trying to sell it as a better way of life to the poor, vulnerable, job seeking Scot is a false promise that would do them more harm than good.

One of the sad things in this thread is the rUK posters who see the SNP as some sort of anti-Tory/Brexit party force for good.

They're not; SNP nationalism is Brexit Party nationalism will a kilt on....they both want to make their constituency a smaller, more isolated, inward looking place.

Good luck with that "advisory referendum" BTW.....why not be upfront and argue the case. I still haven't heard it

baldelectrician

mollycat wrote: »

Most of this is opinion, presented, (as usual), as fact.

People are interested in the money in their pocket
Devaluation of the £ since the Brexit referendum

having a free at source NHS
NHS is being privatised down south, if they could have done it here they would (remember Labour foundation hospital trusts)

, the type of economy that can support spending on benefits, pensions and infrastructure.

Benefit cuts and cap (pooling and sharing???)

Second LOWEST pension in Europe...(Pensions safe in UK??)

NO infrastructure spend in Scotland paid by UK gov (only stuff paid out of block grant). Compare that to Crossrail, HS2, Thames Gateway - all well over £100m BILLION (UK infrastructure around 10% paid by Scots- tell ,me how the 'dividend' is ?

I don't think people are so interested in some far fetched notion that Scotland could magically leave the UK and join the EU without huge trauma to the economy,

The trauma now is the cliff edge brexit on the horizon
We are almost at decision time- hard Brexit or stay in EU after indy vote. Things might move faster than people think now.
I expect a general election where the SNP will gain over 50% of the seats in the voting system preferred bny Westminster
I also expect them to increase the number of seats on a pro indy manifesto.
Time will tell


Independence would probably be tolerable for those who are reasonably well off, those with sought after skills who can move elsewhere, or those (like me), who are too old for it to matter much.
Independence is the normal for a country, Scotland is a country, also remember if you want rid of the SNP then indy is the only way

Trying to sell it as a better way of life to the poor, vulnerable, job seeking Scot is a false promise that would do them more harm than good.

One of the sad things in this thread is the rUK posters who see the SNP as some sort of anti-Tory/Brexit party force for good.

They're not; SNP nationalism is Brexit Party nationalism will a kilt on
To put it politely - the above is cobblers in my opinion.
The Brexit Party want reduced or no immigration, the SNP realise we need control of immigration and more of it

Good luck with that "advisory referendum" BTW.....why not be upfront and argue the case. I still haven't heard it
You seem to forget the Scottish Parliament has voted for a refenendum (there is your argument for it, but never mind that lets ignore that)

Detailed above

Can I take it you are not a fan of the SNP ? :rotfl:

mollycat

baldelectrician wrote: »

Detailed above

Can I take it you are not a fan of the SNP ? :rotfl:

Not a fan of anyone who tries to pull the wool over people's eyes;
example, (as stated by yourself above), "vote for Indy and stay in the EU"

Not going to happen.

No currency.

Massive budget deficit.

Etc, etc, etc.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, although i can't see the logic in your points.

The response to everyone in the UK being poorer due to the Brexit decision is to make our part of the UK even poorer by seperating from the union that gives us a massive subsidy? Doesn't make any sense.

Convince me where the shortfall will come from and I'm with you!

ps.....I know you can't.

Shakethedisease

Not only has Boris Johnson completely undermined Ruth Davidson by sacking Mundell etc. Now John McDonnell has completely undermined his own Scottish party by saying Labour won't block a second indy ref. Glorious meltdown happening on Unionist twitter last few days. This is just the cherry on top. Oh and 'English Parliament ? Whoops :rotfl:

John McDonnell has said Labour should allow Holyrood to stage a second independence referendum if MSPs vote for one, contradicting party policy.


The shadow chancellor told an event at the Edinburgh festival fringe that his party should not try to block a second vote on independence by withholding the legal powers to do so. Interviewed by the broadcaster Iain Dale, McDonnell said: “We would not block something like that. We would let the Scottish people decide. That’s democracy.”

“It will be for the Scottish parliament and the Scottish people to decide that. They will take a view about whether they want another referendum. Nicola Sturgeon said by late next year or the beginning of 2021.
The Scottish parliament will come to a considered view on that and they will submit that to the government and the English parliament itself.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/06/john-mcdonnell-open-to-second-scottish-independence-vote

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Now John McDonnell has completely undermined his own Scottish party by saying Labour won't block a second indy ref.

Nice words. Would you trust the man to keep them though. Given Labour policy generally appears to be a complete fudge of indecision.

mollycat

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Not only has Boris Johnson completely undermined Ruth Davidson by sacking Mundell etc. Now John McDonnell has completely undermined his own Scottish party by saying Labour won't block a second indy ref. Glorious meltdown happening on Unionist twitter last few days. This is just the cherry on top. Oh and 'English Parliament ? Whoops :rotfl:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/06/john-mcdonnell-open-to-second-scottish-independence-vote

UK party politics being in complete and utter chaos/meltdown still don't magically make Independence a sensible option....would just add to the chaos.

islandannie

The quicker we give the SNP complete control of the Scottish economy the better.
After all their record on running Scottish infrastructure is impeccable.

The construction of the Edinburgh children hospital is a lesson in fiscal policy.

Independence would lead to a very swift second begging to our English neighbours to bail us out.

Begsey

islandannie wrote: »

The quicker we give the SNP complete control of the Scottish economy the better.

Never took you for a yesser annie, it seems the tide HAS turned.