The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

EEA/EFTA would allow you to trade with both markets so long as the UK is willing. However the EU is the stated aim, that's what was in the manifesto, not the single market. So you're going to be subject to the EU's trade arrangements and if that's WTO you're going to hurt 64% of your trade and risk 500,000 jobs.

If rUK ends up on WTO terms you're going to be begging and desperate for any trade you can get to be honest. So the rUK would be more than willing.

Scotland at least still has some options. The EU being only one of those.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Ugh why...

What the fu*k does this have to do with Scotland's position in the EU under their trade arrangements?

Can Scotland trade with the UK on anything other than WTO terms if Scotland is in the EU and the deal between the UK and the EU is on WTO terms?

Answer that one, no bull, just answer it yes or no.

What f**k are you getting so angry about ?

Scotland can modify it's positioning accordingly to the make the best of whatever position it finds itself in regarding trade with it's closest neighbour, yet still continue trade unharmed as it has been with the EU. Scotland can potentially have both.

Indeed, there's no reason why not from a Scottish perspective after independence. Scotland will likely end up with a Norway type deal to start with. And might vote for it staying that way after the dust of Brexit and Independence settles.

Crashing out of the EU along with rUK however on WTO terms or a really bad deal from the EU won't be happening unless Scottish voters vote for it to happen that way in a second independence referendum.
In short Tricky, May won't be allowed ( the Scottish Parliament now stands firmly in her way until 2021 ) to take Scotland along for this wild Brexit ride unless Scottish voters really, really do want her to. End of story.

Shaka_Zulu

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It really is time they woke up to the plain fact that it's either or, they cannot have both.

And you know this how?

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

What f**k are you getting so angry about ?

Scotland can modify it's positioning accordingly to the make the best of whatever position it finds itself in regarding trade with it's closest neighbour, yet still continue trade unharmed as it has been with the EU. Scotland can potentially have both.

Indeed, there's no reason why not from a Scottish perspective after independence. Scotland will likely end up with a Norway type deal to start with. And might vote for it staying that way after the dust of Brexit and Independence settles.

Crashing out of the EU along with rUK however on WTO terms or a really bad deal from the EU won't be happening unless Scottish voters vote for it to happen that way in a second independence referendum.
In short Tricky, May won't be allowed ( the Scottish Parliament now stands firmly in her way until 2021 ) to take Scotland along for this wild Brexit ride unless Scottish voters really, really do want her to. End of story.

According to the manifesto the SNP were elected on and the mandate to stay in the EU that you all keep banging on about, EEA/EFTA is not the end goal which means at some point iScotland will have to join the EU. Then it needs to get through the fiscal compact tests and will inherit none of the UK membership, you will be a brand new accession.

If Theresa May gets a large working majority rest assured that protestations from Holyrood will be heard but not acted on unless in the best interests of the entire country, not just Scotland. Holyrood has no power to stop it. The ECJ and any other court are never ever going to rule that Holyrood has constitutional power. Forget it.

Angry? Maybe... I'm sick of the bull and misdirection. I'm tired of having to repeat simple points made clear.

.string.

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

... Angry? Maybe... I'm sick of the bull and misdirection. I'm tired of having to repeat simple points made clear.

Yes me too. We are getting little to zero original thought from these SNP supporters, merely repetitions of second hand spin and pretence that there is nothing other than independence that matters or possible.

Shakethedisease

Shaka_Zulu wrote: »

And you know this how?

1) Because selling fish via the Single Market means the UK having FOM. Ain't happening.

2) Gove and other Brexiteers were up selling the dream of a Brexit, and out of the CFP...while still selling oodles of tarriff free fish to the EU via the Single Market. Aint happening.

3) Now they have no idea what they want. Neither do the Farmers, who incidentally also voted for the same and will be buried en masse if the UK leaves to EU to trade on WTO terms.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

EEA/EFTA is not the end goal which means at some point iScotland will have to join the EU. .

Norway has been short of that point for decades.;)

Shaka_Zulu

Shakethedisease wrote: »

1) Because selling fish via the Single Market means the UK having FOM. Ain't happening.

How about just selling fish "to" the single market?

You think they will just stop buying our fish?

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

According to the manifesto the SNP were elected on and the mandate to stay in the EU that you all keep banging on about, EEA/EFTA is not the end goal which means at some point iScotland will have to join the EU. Then it needs to get through the fiscal compact tests and will inherit none of the UK membership, you will be a brand new accession.

There are things the SNP/Scottish Govt can control and things they cannot. Full EU membership upon independence and what kind of Brexit the UK ends up are outwith their remit. Scots voters aren't idiots, we know this.

Therefore EEA/EFTA are real possibilities going forward. And could solve a few short term immediate problems at the same time. Trade and jobs with rUK and trade with the EU under a Norway style model is a good starting point for Scotland.

If Theresa May gets a large working majority rest assured that protestations from Holyrood will be heard but not acted on unless in the best interests of the entire country, not just Scotland. Holyrood has no power to stop it. The ECJ and any other court are never ever going to rule that Holyrood has constitutional power. Forget it.

May's majority makes not one teeny tiny iota of difference to the Scottish Parliament. That ship sailed in March. Referendum, courts or another election.. by whatever means necessary it will, and I can assure you of this, firmly stand in May's way until 2021 making sure that the Scots electorate will be consulted on their future constitutional wishes once Brexit terms are clear. May isn't taking Scotland with her out of Europe and the Single Market until the Scots are asked if that's what they want.

We can debate it how you like, but the above is the whole story regarding a second referendum in a nutshell.

Angry? Maybe... I'm sick of the bull and misdirection. I'm tired of having to repeat simple points made clear.

You're in denial Tricky and string. Your clear points depend on viewing the SNP as some kind of hateful fringe party only a few people support. When the realities are that the SNP now dominate Scottish politics on every level. Scottish Labour is in it's death throes and they, and the other two Scottish parties only have one single policy to offer between them all ( no indy ref ).

Prepare for a vote round about the same time Brexit talks end one way or another. Westminster can deal with the constitutional results and the 'constitutional matters' of it after it happens. Because there's no real way of stopping it now and Sturgeon/Salmond will have planned and prepared for this 'Westminster says no' scenario years ago.

elantan

.string. wrote: »

Yes me too. We are getting little to zero original thought from these SNP supporters, merely repetitions of second hand spin and pretence that there is nothing other than independence that matters or possible.

And we're getting nothing but too wee too poor too stupid we hate the English yadda yadda yadda

With the pretence that there is nothing other than the union that matters or possible