PCP and Diesel Particulate Filter

bigjl

motorguy wrote: »

This will be controversial, but i'd consider a DPF removal. Around £300 will get the DPF taken off, split, the internals removed, welded up and put back on again, and then the car recoded so it doesnt throw any errors.

And before anyone whinges - that is NOT an MOT fail. DPF has to be present, but they only check the presence of the box, and the welding is done on the body up side of the box.

You are giving wrong advice.

VOSA (or whatever they call themselves now) are not stupid it is fairly easy to spot a gutted DPF, it's hollow for a start.

You are advising people to do something that will definitely invalidate the New Car Warranty but could also cause Insurance problems, if your car is no longer compliant to Construction and Use Regulations then who knows what could happen in these litigious times.

Are you going to indemnify anybody that follows your advise for future financial loss? What would you tell Insurance when they ask if the car has been modified from stock or has any modifications?

If I was an Insurance Company I would put a specific clause in the small print regarding DPF tampering.

There is probably small print in there already regarding the vehicle being complaint to C&U Regs.

Any MOT garage that passes a gutted DPF could also find themselves under investigation. And that isn't my opinion that was something told to me by a mate with an MoT station. When the EU got involved with DPF issues it got an awful lot more complicated.

But, seriously, you would advise gutting the DPF on a brand new car?

Whilst putting your hopes on your legal argument that because the housing the DPF is present means you haven't removed the DPF? Well the DPF is the bit inside it not that actual housing so your argument is a bit like saying the Mars bar is in the wrapper when you have eaten the Mars bar and then revealed the wrapper. The Mars bar is still eaten.

Who would you even get to remap the ECU?

The Nissan dealer?

The fact the car has had the ECU read and reset and told to take it for a Regen run only for the DPF lights to come straight back on would make me think there is a system fault.

Though one thing that did concern me a little was when the OP said the amber light was on for two days before it went Red.

That could either mean it went Amber, went off and then came back Red. Or they drove it for two days without taking it for a Regen run or allowing an active Regen to complete.

The Amber light usually comes on after a set number of failed attempts at a complete Regen, the Red light is usually when the filter is significantly blocked and the vehicle goes into limp mode to reduce possible turbo damage, as far as I am aware no vehicle will Regen once in limp mode unless you have access to Diagnostic kit or one of the Regen Dongles that are on the market, they do them for JLR vehicles.

Marvel1

I read your comment about his wife doing the same job, but that has nothing to do with it, people do have lives outside work - maybe travelling at weekends. Don't mean to come across as blunt on this.

Hope it all gets sorted.

bigjl

cjdavies wrote: »

Let me guess the diesel was more attractive as it low tax? I know the feeling as I was researching the same. Then I did a petrol vs diesel difference and found diesel is not for me as I don't do the mileage. So petrol it was.

It's not just mileage with a DPF.

I know two people that do no more than 10miles (each way) commutes often in heavy traffic inside the M25 and neither have had DPF issues. One car has been used this way for 8 years, not even in 80k yet. The other did a similar route to a different work place for just over 3 years with no problems, not even an Amber light.

I think that both commutes can be over an hour each way might help as the DPF will get nice and hot and be able to actively Regen when needed.

The second vehicle had over 90k of mainly motorway miles on it at the start of the three years, I think it was on about 130k in the end.

Don't think I am any fan of DPFs, as I have said before they are an engineering lash up to meets emissions Regs.

I had priced up a Gut and Remap for my Jaguar XJL, until the change in the rules. Back in 07 I discussed with station management about removing the DPFs from the Zafiras to improve fuel consumption and stop engine failure relating to diesel contamination. It was vetoed as the NHS doesn't modify vehicles in that way. A pity as I think it would have improved the vehicles immensely.

When buying the Picanto recently I looked at some diesels. I do like diesels, they are easy to drive with lots of torque you don't have to rev them hard etc.

I wanted zero or under £50 tax which was common in many diesels, but rare on petrols.

Initial plan is to wait 2/3 years and replace the Berlingo with an Evoque. And that will have to be diesel, with one of the new Ingenium engines, hopefully they will have sorted out any issues by then.

MrsB387

cjdavies wrote: »

I read your comment about his wife doing the same job, but that has nothing to do with it, people do have lives outside work - maybe travelling at weekends. Don't mean to come across as blunt on this.

Hope it all gets sorted.

The fact that his wife done the same job as me at the time meant that my style of driving was discussed at length. More so this time than any other time we've bought a car. This is why I feel we have possibly been mis sold. In fact I don't think I've ever discussed my style of driving with a salesperson in a showroom. But it's neither here nor there.

MrsB387

Though one thing that did concern me a little was when the OP said the amber light was on for two days before it went Red.

That could either mean it went Amber, went off and then came back Red. Or they drove it for two days without taking it for a Regen run or allowing an active Regen to complete.


I did run it for the days the light came on Amber the last time round as I had no idea what the problem was. Roadside had said it was a sensor, the dealership/garage said it was fine to drive. This time round I fully understood the amber light and planned to take it out to regen that evening but the red light came on as soon as I started the engine again.

MrsB387

I've just checked my diary in preparation for calling customer services. It was 11th November the problems started last time so it's not even managed to stay out of the garage for 3 months.

motorguy

bigjl wrote: »

You are giving wrong advice.

VOSA (or whatever they call themselves now) are not stupid it is fairly easy to spot a gutted DPF, it's hollow for a start.

Theres always somebody bites... :T

VOSA dont do the checks though do they? Its the MOT centre / MOT Garage. All they check for is DPF present.

bigjl wrote: »

You are advising people to do something that will definitely invalidate the New Car Warranty but could also cause Insurance problems, if your car is no longer compliant to Construction and Use Regulations then who knows what could happen in these litigious times.

It'll only invalidate the warranty on the DPF - unsurprisingly - they cant say "oh we're not standing over your gearbox failure because we think theres no DPF in the box".

bigjl wrote: »

Are you going to indemnify anybody that follows your advise for future financial loss? What would you tell Insurance when they ask if the car has been modified from stock or has any modifications?

Yes, of course. I've £100 million indemnity insurance for advice given out on an internet forum :rolleyes:

Its a suggestion - loads of people have done it and its a solution. If its the choice between having a car thats unusable and having a car that actually runs better than when it did from the factory, i know which i'd chose.

Our local church here - they've a couple of mini buses - the first thing they do is have the DPFs gutted as they only do very short runs picking up OAPs. I suppose next you'll tell me that Jesus wont let them in to heaven? :rotfl:

bigjl wrote: »

If I was an Insurance Company I would put a specific clause in the small print regarding DPF tampering.

However you're not and they havent.

bigjl wrote: »

There is probably small print in there already regarding the vehicle being complaint to C&U Regs.

Theres not.

bigjl wrote: »

Any MOT garage that passes a gutted DPF could also find themselves under investigation. And that isn't my opinion that was something told to me by a mate with an MoT station. When the EU got involved with DPF issues it got an awful lot more complicated.

If they know its a gutted DPF then yes, possibly. But they wont. They are only obliged to check for the presence of the DPF, not its contents.

Keep up at the back please.

bigjl wrote: »

But, seriously, you would advise gutting the DPF on a brand new car?

If it was the choice between having the car off the road, not getting any support from the dealer, manufacturer and finance company and losing all faith in the product and having full use of my car again with no future problems, i'd have no hesitation.

At very worst, down the line stick one back in again.

bigjl wrote: »

Whilst putting your hopes on your legal argument that because the housing the DPF is present means you haven't removed the DPF? Well the DPF is the bit inside it not that actual housing so your argument is a bit like saying the Mars bar is in the wrapper when you have eaten the Mars bar and then revealed the wrapper. The Mars bar is still eaten.

There is no "legal" argument, because its not a court of law issue.

And what if you dont like Mars bars but you want people to think you do? You could have a mars bar wrapper on your desk with perhaps a little piece of sponge inside it?

I dont think thats illegal either.

bigjl wrote: »

Who would you even get to remap the ECU?

The Nissan dealer?

There are load of companies specialising in DPF removal, they do the remaps too, just like you can remap for more power or to remove a speed limiter to say beyond 155MPH, then you can recode the car to think it has no ECU.

bigjl wrote: »

The fact the car has had the ECU read and reset and told to take it for a Regen run only for the DPF lights to come straight back on would make me think there is a system fault.

Its got a blocked DPF beyond the capabilities of a regen to clear it.

bigjl wrote: »

Though one thing that did concern me a little was when the OP said the amber light was on for two days before it went Red.

That could either mean it went Amber, went off and then came back Red. Or they drove it for two days without taking it for a Regen run or allowing an active Regen to complete.

The Amber light usually comes on after a set number of failed attempts at a complete Regen, the Red light is usually when the filter is significantly blocked and the vehicle goes into limp mode to reduce possible turbo damage, as far as I am aware no vehicle will Regen once in limp mode unless you have access to Diagnostic kit or one of the Regen Dongles that are on the market, they do them for JLR vehicles.

Yay! the penny has dropped, its on RED because its blocked beyond the capability of a regen to unblock it.

motorguy

bigjl wrote: »

I had priced up a Gut and Remap for my Jaguar XJL, until the change in the rules. Back in 07 I discussed with station management about removing the DPFs from the Zafiras to improve fuel consumption and stop engine failure relating to diesel contamination. It was vetoed as the NHS doesn't modify vehicles in that way. A pity as I think it would have improved the vehicles immensely.

So if you know all about how to do it, and the advantages, why were you having a go at me as if this was all news to you?

There is no change in the law, other than they check for the presence of the DPF box. Easily sidestepped because gutting the DPF retains the box. You would have known this back in 07 not sure why such info would come as a surprise now.

bigjl

motorguy wrote: »

So if you know all about how to do it, and the advantages, why were you having a go at me as if this was all news to you?

There is no change in the law, other than they check for the presence of the DPF box. Easily sidestepped because gutting the DPF retains the box. You would have known this back in 07 not sure why such info would come as a surprise now.

Because it became an MOT failure. And made your car non compliant to Construction and Use Regualtions.

So dissecting my post in detail makes no difference.

Gutting a DPF is the same as no DPF unless you are happy to indemnify somebodies legal fees if they try and argue that point in court you can't make statements to the effect that it is fine.

If a car is pulled over by VOSA or the Police to see if it is roadworthy do you think they won't have a quick knock of the DPF?

If it is hollow then no DPF, a DPF is not hollow.

I agree that removing or gutting was an option.

It now isn't, relying on a play on words as you suggest is risky.

And if you were a loss adjuster would you check every diesel car involved in an RTC to see if the DOF has been gutted?

I would, would save my employer a fortune, unless you admitted from the outset you had modified the car this way and Hereford had admitted all along your car was not compliant to Construction & Use Regs and should not have passed an MOT.

Unless the rules say that only the casing needs to be present not the actual DPF then gutting it is he same as removing it.

Until there is proper evidence to suggest otherwise you have to leave them on.

To be perfectly honest they are not as bad as they once were, though when they become a problem it is better to sell the car.

I doubt that they greatly improve overal emissions and are a lash up designed to make EU targets in Urban areas.

bigjl

motorguy wrote: »

Theres always somebody bites... :T

VOSA dont do the checks though do they? Its the MOT centre / MOT Garage. All they check for is DPF present.



It'll only invalidate the warranty on the DPF - unsurprisingly - they cant say "oh we're not standing over your gearbox failure because we think theres no DPF in the box".


Yes, of course. I've £100 million indemnity insurance for advice given out on an internet forum :rolleyes:

Its a suggestion - loads of people have done it and its a solution.


Yay! the penny has dropped, its on RED because its blocked beyond the capability of a regen to unblock it.

Vosa do roadside checks all the time, often alongside the Police and the Revenue checking for red diesel.

The DPF red light coming is not always an indication of a DOF being blocked, a sensor fault could cause the Red light to come on when there is almost no loading in the DPF.

Again, are you going to indemnify people who follow your advice regarding a new car warranty?

You said it was legal an somebody would be along saying it isn't.

You didn't suggest it you basically said people should do it, no caveat of it being at their own risk.

You are not giving the full story and you advice is misleading.

You seem to think an MOT tester will simply look at the DPF casing to confirm it is there, but any half decent MOT tester will be aware people gutt them and simply check if it is hollow. If it sounds empty then no DPF. Disconnected sensors? No DPF.

I still think the OPs problem is the car not vehicle usage.

If I ever own a DPF equipped vehicle I will buy a diagnostic kit that will allow me to perform a forced Regen. Though to be honest I haven't found them to be that bad.

The Jaguar system not doing a Regen unless above 30mph or so is just a pain in the harris, probably why there is a Dongle available that you plug in the OBD and it puts the vehicle into Regen wether the DPF light is Red or Amber thus stopping the need to go to a dealer.