Psychics

benjus

If something "supernatural" were to be proved under controlled conditions and recognised by science, wouldn't it stop being "supernatural" and become just "natural"?

If the supernatural does exist, surely it's possible that it could never be proved under controlled conditions because by definition it exists outside nature (and therefore science). So it just comes down to a question of belief. The same applies to religion, of course.

However, looking at the balance of probabilities, including the fact that some performers (e.g. Derren Brown) can achieve pretty amazing things that any psychic would be proud of - without claiming to have any supernatural powers - I cannot be persuaded to believe in psychics or similar practitioners. I could go to a psychic reading and would probably be impressed, if the psychic was good at what they do; but I would probably be at least as impressed with a performance by Derren Brown, and unable to explain how he did it. Just because you can't explain something, doesn't make it supernatural.

robatwork

I am not much of a psychic then. Like everyone else on this planet and even Tim Peake.

I can predict that some of you will agree with me and some won't. Some will continue to save money and some will squander it. Don't ask me how I know these things - real psychics never reveal the provenance of their gifts

midnitegremlin

benjus wrote: »

the fact that some performers (e.g. Derren Brown) can achieve pretty amazing things that any psychic would be proud of - without claiming to have any supernatural powers

He could just be simply cheating of course. IE using stooges. People seem to take it on trust that he isn't. Just like they do with psychics.

He does a thing were he deals a poker and and lets the person "pick" their cards as he hold them up one by one (he can see them, they can't), and makes out that he has used "persuasion" to infleunce their choice. It's not true, it's simply that the deck is rigged so that whoever is dealt the first card will always have the worse hand, no matter which cards they pick.

A magic trick plain and simply. Add that he claims directly that it's NOT a magic act.. then humm..

For sure, he IS entertaining. But once it's clear that he is claiming something thats not true- using "mind control" when in fact he's doing a card trick, then I can't see how he's any better than the people he targets.

paddyrg

Quoting myself, it seems appropriate...

.Ah, psychics.

Are there fraudulent psychics? Absolutely.
Are there delusional psychics? Absolutely.
Are there genuine psychics? Unproved.

Orson Welles, with his many other talents, was a capable magician. For giggles on a theatre run, he presented himself as a phony psychic, using all the usual tricks (cold reading, Barnum statements, spotting and extrapolating details, fishing, ham acting, etc), and had a lot of successes. However he found as time went on, he stopped having to do most of those tricks consciously, they became automatic as he improved, and he realised he started reading subtle cues subconsciously. Then he stopped.

This could be what's happening with many psychics - they are sensitive, they find themselves picking up subtle cues and extrapolating, getting lucky sometimes, having the hits reinforced and misses forgotten. These may be the delusional class - they believe their own skills are supernatural, whereas they may just be picking up on the environmental cues (and the 'trance' just being a clearing of the mind). These are also the group I'd suggest who are least about the money.

Derren Brown is a conjurer and mentalist, and is absolutely NOT a psychic. The big stage shows are almost all conjuring, the pressure is too high and pace too fast to do genuine mentalism effectively. You may not know how he's doing a trick, but that doesn't mean it isn't a trick, it just means you don't know how he's doing it. FWIW, I don't believe he uses confederates/stooges - there is simply no need, and it's very much looked down on in magic circles. Don't doubt his conjuring ability - he's a very skiled card handler, for instance, but knows that doesn't work with his stage persona so doesn't do card tricks any more. He's very good. Some of his psychological specials are genuinely mentalism-related, but they're shot over weeks and months.

TV psychics use a variety of tricks including inviting existing clients to fill out audiences - 'Your mother's name was Janice, am I right?' sounds impressive to most of the audience assuming it's a cold hit. The live shows also run for /hours/ and the hits make it to TV, the misses get cut in the 20 minute shows. They have listeners in the lobby, they have lobby cards 'to ask <psychic> a question' which can be spun out into cold-looking hits. Researchers can add a little extra, and you can buy genuinely invisible earpieces for under £20 if you know where to look - and don't doubt that psychics frequently use these tricks.

I would LOVE for someone to demonstrate a genuine psychic ability - it would be a huge boost for the pro-psychic, pro-paranormal, religious camps. Huge. The churches would be full. Psychics (including the frauds) would be printing their own money. I would feel massively reassured that there was an afterlife (currently unproved either way, but the evidence rather suggests not), there will be a lot in similar positions. If you have a genuine psychic ability demonstrated to (say) Randi, $1M is chicken feed. Because nobody so far has managed to validate their extraordinary claims, I have to suggest psychics are either delusional or frauds.

midnitegremlin

I'm trying to quote your post ha ha- you mention stooges are looked down upon in magic circles. I might have used the wrong word, but in fact so many magic tricks require the "volunteer from the audience" who is in fact in on the act. Such as the cutting a lady in half etc. Watch the masked magician for many more.

I feel that with Derren Brown a lot of his "mentalist" tricks could be done with a helper acting as the "person in the street." As with psychic powers, it's impossible to prove on way or another (aside from outright confession of course.)

I do agree though, he is essentially a very good illusionist, and he markets his act really really well.

robatwork

Magic
Mind reading
Psychic abilities
Ghosts
Telekenises
Previous life
Fortune telling
Tea leaf reading
Tarot cards
Astrology
Ouija

Alien life
Acupuncture

Conjuring
Cold reading
Psychoanalysis


OK I have grouped these things into "jury is still out - evidence needed", "genuine skill" and "entertainment industry only".

Will leave it to the reader to decide which is which.

paddyrg

midnitegremlin wrote: »

I'm trying to quote your post ha ha- you mention stooges are looked down upon in magic circles. I might have used the wrong word, but in fact so many magic tricks require the "volunteer from the audience" who is in fact in on the act. Such as the cutting a lady in half etc. Watch the masked magician for many more.

I feel that with Derren Brown a lot of his "mentalist" tricks could be done with a helper acting as the "person in the street." As with psychic powers, it's impossible to prove on way or another (aside from outright confession of course.)

I do agree though, he is essentially a very good illusionist, and he markets his act really really well.

Stooge, shill, confederate, helper, take your pick. 'Mindfreak' Criss Angel depends on paid shills, confederates, etc to pretend to be 'public' in order for any of his bloody awful effects to work. He is a million miles away from being a great illusionist. In the realms of performers, etc., he's generally regarded as not even close. The stunts that require shills, stooges, etc are not generally well-regarded.

Sawing the lady in half - may have been marginally interesting in Vaudeville days but is just a joke to any modern audience. Anyone performing will cut an 'assistant' which is certainly different from someone pretending to be a random punter.

Brown - a lot of his (well, anyone's) tricks could be done with a shill, but actually don't need to be. All of his stage show stuff can be done without, and the old street stuff is pretty simple, and the best few minutes easily selected from a couple of hours.