EU Deal - Money still sent to other economies

Graham_Devon

michaels wrote: »

What a carpy phoney campaign we are in - I begin to understand why the Scots got so upset if the same lies, obscurifucation and irrelevance was used in their referendum by both sides.

I would assume as it's come so quickly after the negotiation, this is the way it will now go. I think it was earlier in this thread I said I hope it doesn't turn into this, but alas....

I'm just surprised the scare mongering has started right from the very top and started so quickly. I honestly would have thought that scare and threat tactics would have been held back, at least until after the EU members have looked at the renegotiation.

leveller2911

Graham_Devon wrote: »

I would assume as it's come so quickly after the negotiation, this is the way it will now go. I think it was earlier in this thread I said I hope it doesn't turn into this, but alas....

I'm just surprised the scare mongering has started right from the very top and started so quickly. I honestly would have thought that scare and threat tactics would have been held back, at least until after the EU members have looked at the renegotiation.

I wonder if this is the result of the polls recently which gave the out campaign a 9 point lead. It may have come as a shock to the out of touch Dave.

Graham_Devon

leveller2911 wrote: »

I wonder if this is the result of the polls recently which gave the out campaign a 9 point lead. It may have come as a shock to the out of touch Dave.

Could be.

Harks back to the Scottish independence debate when the polls turned and suddenly all 3 leaders were wearing kilts.

Of course, they wouldn't admit it was anything to do with the polls - was all a coincidence that they suddenly all decided to rush up a couple of days after the polls turned.

mayonnaise

angrypirate wrote: »

Also found this from Guido http://order-order.com/

The French interior minister last year rubbished the idea promoted by Cameron today that France might tear up their agreement with Britain on border controls if we left the EU. Bernard Cazeneuve said:

“Calling for the border with the English to be opened is not a responsible solution. It would send a signal to people smugglers and would lead migrants to flow to Calais in far greater numbers. A humanitarian disaster would ensue. It is a foolhardy path, and one the government will not pursue. On the contrary, we’re going to make the border even more watertight to dissuade smugglers and migrants, respect international rules and reduce the pressure on Calais.”

Is this the same Cazeneuve who said:

When asked about border controls, Bernard Cazeneuve, the interior minister, said that the UK can expect “countermeasures” if it leaves the 28-country bloc after an forthcoming referendum, becoming the most senior European figure to publicly warn of the terms of divorce if Britain left the EU.

Mr Cazeneuve issued the veiled threat a day after David Cameron warned that “excellent” juxtaposed border controls where British border police conduct checks on French soil – notably in Calais – could be jeopardised in case of "Brexit".

?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11946146/If-Brexit-happens-UK-wont-be-able-to-police-French-borders-to-stop-migrants-warns-France.html

mayonnaise

Graham_Devon wrote: »

You should read the article.

The setup now has nothing to do with being part of the EU.

I read the article.
Sure it's not an EU agreement as such, it's a bilateral agreement between 2 EU member states.

You may have noticed on your last trip to the continent, Graham, French border police doesn't give a flying fig about who leaves France. They wave you through and 100 yards further is a bit more stringent UK border control. We could keep this activity in France or move it to Dover and Folkestone. Each and every illegal stowed away on ferries and Eurotunnel would be screaming 'asylum!' as soon as they set foot on UK soil.

No scaremongering here, just a very likely scenario.

mayonnaise

angrypirate wrote: »

Dan Hannan details the history of the agreement, why it has nothing to do with being in the EU and what might happen if France decide to break the agreements between the 2 countries
http://capx.co/if-david-cameron-thinks-the-eu-wants-to-shunt-illegal-immigrants-on-to-britain-why-does-he-want-to-stay/

First, because the French government owns a large chunk of Eurostar, and reciprocal border checks make that train operate more profitably. Second, because anything that looked like an easier route into the UK might encourage more migrants to cross France, a process which brings social problems of its own.

First, Eurostar is not the issue. Migrants don't tend to come by Eurostar.
They (try to) get into the UK by Eurotunnel and the ferry operators. All private concerns, nothing to do with the French government.
Second, being France, what would you prefer? More migrants crossing France on their way to UK soil or permanent refugee camps on your own territory? I know what I'd choose.

Seriously, don't quote Dan Hannan anymore, the guy is an embarrassment. Should have joined UKIP ages ago.

Graham_Devon

mayonnaise wrote: »

Is this the same Cazeneuve who said:

Are they threatening us?

We better bend over then and do what they tell us....

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Are they threatening us?

We better bend over then and do what they tell us....

No need to take one for the team Graham but thanks for the offer.

There's some discussion about how, in the event the UK exit, it would reasonable and in the best interests of all for both sides to negotiate in good faith. This is true but doesn't take into account human nature and the posturing of politicians. You only have to look at SNP for an example of negotiating in bad faith to the detriment of the peoples of Scotland and the whole of the UK.

I take with a large pinch of salt the arguments we're more important to them, why would they cut off their noses etc. etc. There's no guarantee either we'll be happy with the competence of whoever is negotiating on our behalf. You've started this thread to say how poor the deal is - why do you have faith a sweet deal can be negotiated if we leave.

I'll take my chances with an imperfect EU thanks.

angrypirate

mayonnaise wrote: »

First, Eurostar is not the issue. Migrants don't tend to come by Eurostar.
They (try to) get into the UK by Eurotunnel and the ferry operators. All private concerns, nothing to do with the French government.
Second, being France, what would you prefer? More migrants crossing France on their way to UK soil or permanent refugee camps on your own territory? I know what I'd choose.

Seriously, don't quote Dan Hannan anymore, the guy is an embarrassment. Should have joined UKIP ages ago.

Care to share why your opinion on him is that he is an embarrassment? I see nothing he has said here being wrong or controversial. In fact, completely the opposite - its clever, reasoned and intelligent. Quite unusual for a politician.

These immigrants are trying to get into the UK any way possible. What Hannan is saying is that if France do decide to pull the plug on the agreement (which has nothing to do with the EU), then the UK government can easily and simply make it the responsibility of the operator of the various routes into the country to check the legitimacy of the people they are carrying it. They carry immigrants across the channel, then they would have to return the immigrants at their own cost plus a fine, just like airline carriers.

Sapphire

angrypirate wrote: »

Care to share why your opinion on him is that he is an embarrassment? I see nothing he has said here being wrong or controversial. In fact, completely the opposite - its clever, reasoned and intelligent. Quite unusual for a politician.

These immigrants are trying to get into the UK any way possible. What Hannan is saying is that if France do decide to pull the plug on the agreement (which has nothing to do with the EU), then the UK government can easily and simply make it the responsibility of the operator of the various routes into the country to check the legitimacy of the people they are carrying it. They carry immigrants across the channel, then they would have to return the immigrants at their own cost plus a fine, just like airline carriers.

… and France has just said that the agreement would remain in force (I'm sure they wouldn't want zillions of migrants of many origins attempting to tromp through France in the hope of getting to Britain). It's high time the camps were removed and the economic migrants in them returned from whence they came. If current laws, not designed for such a situation, don't allow this, change them.

In other news, a top consultant has just in effect stated that people coming to the UK from the EU solely to get NHS treatment (i.e. at taxpayers' expense) are what is destroying the NHS, contrary to the spin that the elderly of the indigenous population are somehow at fault (shameful, the way our old people are being treated, especially given that many of them fought for this country :mad:).

Agree about Daniel Hannan – he has always talked a lot of sense, as far as I'm concerned.

Yes to Brexit.