EU Deal - Money still sent to other economies

wotsthat

michaels wrote: »

I am worried I vie wthis debate through a prism. My perspective is that the 'renegotiation', because it highlights how little influence the UK govt has, is actually probably a vote loser rather than a vote winner when it comes to whether we stay in the EU.

I would be interested to hear the views of EU supporters on whether they think the renegotiaton will have increased or reduced the number of people who will vote to stay.

I don't know it makes a difference either way.

We all knew Cameron was going to go to Brussels and return with a deal which he would say was fantastic and we should vote to say. We also knew, in advance, which people would say the deal was crap, who would say it was great and the media would say whatever was the most clickworthy.

In their own ways we knew (most) Tories, Labour, SNP and the Lib Dems would be campaigning to stay.

The referendum only came about because Cameron wanted to get through the GE without Europe being a big internal issue and because others were threatening to hold a referendum.

If he knew Labour and the Lid Dems were going to be destroyed maybe he wouldn't have bothered wasting his and our time.

Graham_Devon

wotsthat wrote: »

We all knew Cameron was going to go to Brussels and return with a deal which he would say was fantastic and we should vote to say. We also knew, in advance, which people would say the deal was crap, who would say it was great and the media would say whatever was the most clickworthy.

All true.

Though what did you (as someone who is very much pro-EU or comes across as such) think of it?

angrypirate

wotsthat wrote: »

I don't know it makes a difference either way.

We all knew Cameron was going to go to Brussels and return with a deal which he would say was fantastic and we should vote to say. We also knew, in advance, which people would say the deal was crap, who would say it was great and the media would say whatever was the most clickworthy.

In their own ways we knew (most) Tories, Labour, SNP and the Lib Dems would be campaigning to stay.

The referendum only came about because Cameron wanted to get through the GE without Europe being a big internal issue and because others were threatening to hold a referendum.

If he knew Labour and the Lid Dems were going to be destroyed maybe he wouldn't have bothered wasting his and our time.

We all knew all the Eurosceptics would say the deal was crap. However what is embarrassing is that some Europhiles are saying the deal is crap.

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

All true.

Though what did you (as someone who is very much pro-EU or comes across as such) think of it?

For me I saw the promised referendum and negotiations for what they were - Conservative party politics.

The negotiations and the results weren't a deal breaker - I'd already made up my mind. I haven't even bothered reading the text or any news reports.

It's the effect on the undecided voters that matters.

Graham_Devon

wotsthat wrote: »

For me I saw the promised referendum and negotiations for what they were - Conservative party politics.

The negotiations and the results weren't a deal breaker - I'd already made up my mind. I haven't even bothered reading the text or any news reports.

It's the effect on the undecided voters that matters.

So you won't state what you thought of it? Won't admit it's bad for the in camp?

michaels

angrypirate wrote: »

We all knew all the Eurosceptics would say the deal was crap. However what is embarrassing is that some Europhiles are saying the deal is crap.

That is my perspective, even the pro EU BBC is being faintly damning where as I expected the EU to offer him enough of a bone for him to have something to show the electorate. That they haven't suggests either there is a private understanding that stay in will win or they don't care if Britain leaves. Perhaps the later is true but I think that would be a risky strategy for the EU to pursue so I assume that it is the former, that it was felt (perhaps communicated by Cameron) that no concessions were needed as the referendum would be won any way.

However if this is the case did we even need the negotiation at all or is it the case that psychologically it is easier for waiverers to vote in favour if they think there is a little of what they want to see on offer?

LoveLifeAgain

kabayiri wrote: »

Renegotiation?

Cameron needs the temporary support from the other countries to keep UK voters on the IN campaign side.

That's all it is. There isn't an awful lot of love for the UK outlook from other EU members. We have been seen as awkward outsiders for decades.

I'm slightly surprised he managed to come back with something written down. It could yet be watered down.

Like Chamberlain - sorry, I'll get me coat......

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

So you won't state what you thought of it? Won't admit it's bad for the in camp?

How can I have an opinion if I've not read the text or followed any news?

I keep saying all of this was entirely predictable and IMO most people had already decided. Say it's a terrible blow for the in camp and they lose 100% of the undecided vote that's probably about 12 people.

Graham_Devon

wotsthat wrote: »

How can I have an opinion if I've not read the text or followed any news?

I keep saying all of this was entirely predictable and IMO most people had already decided. Say it's a terrible blow for the in camp and they lose 100% of the undecided vote that's probably about 12 people.

Well you appear to have no trouble having an opinion on everyone elses opinion?

As for my opinion - as you may have guessed, I'm now a firm out voter. I did say I would wait for this deal, but it's of little surprised that such a poor deal has my mind made up. Hell, it's such a poor, vague deal, with so many get out clauses which means it can be torn up at a whim that even those pro-EU are embarrassed by it.

You can trivalise it with your 12 people statement - but you'd be missing the point by a large margin.

N1AK

Graham_Devon wrote: »

So, nothing really seems to have changed - but we've spent thousands sending people all over the place to sit in rooms talking about it all. And we'll spend thousands more co-ercing the rest of the EU to sign up to nothing much changing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35467479

I couldn't agree more with much of your analysis. The reforms Cameron has negotiated would be comically bad if it wasn't for the fact that this kind of blatant political falsity probably harms the In campaign more than if he hadn't done anything at all.

I'm still a supporter of the EU and our membership of it, even though there's huge chunks of it I'd like to see change*. Using it a huge amount of political goodwill from our European neighbours on what is clearly nothing more than a vacuous PR exercise and an attempt to stop civil war within the conservative party is deeply frustrating.

*Before anyone says it's odd to support something you disagree with huge elements of. I also support our country being a democracy, but think our current implementation is flawed in many ways. I also support our legal system but think it needs very considerable reform. I support England at football tournaments but would much prefer a less conservative and stifling style...