EU Deal - Money still sent to other economies

mwpt

Sapphire wrote: »

However, moving away from this contentious subject, until last year I had no idea of Germany's grand plan for Europe to be run as some kind of 'united states' under the orders of Germany.

Well, the reason you hadn't any idea of this plan is that it's just a figment of your imagination. You choose to interpret events in such a way that says to you "German plan of EU dominance" but that doesn't make it reality. It's a little sad that such conspiracy theories are so seductive and that people who prefer to see things in a narrow but easy to believe story manner can influence my own life (ie. vote to leave the EU because of it) but such is the way of the world.

I was shocked at the way unelected bureaucrats in Brussels suddenly appeared to start to dictate to sovereign European nations what they should be doing politically.

What you are probably referring to is the richer states setting terms for more bailout money. That is pretty common. Do you accuse the banks of being dictators when they set terms of loans to sovereign entities (you and I)?

But, that leads to your final point...

It was totally absurd for the countries of the EU that have the Euro to all have adopted the same currency, for example, given that their economies are all very different, with some being much weaker than others.

Here we reach agreement. This has been fundamental to causing the problems that you touch on above. I do believe that the politicians and economists vested in the eu, failed to understand the real outcome of a single currency. I guess they looked at the United States for direction but we're in a new era and forcing that model onto Europe, in my opinion, was bound to lead us to where we are today.

But I don't believe that there is some underlying, long running master plan by the Germans (or some super group) to dominate Europe. Politicians are conniving and devious but they are also short sighted and self interested, there is no way this plan was thought out all those years ago, set in motion and somehow everyone involved keeps mum and plays along. It's akin to moon landing or world trade centre stuff.

Sapphire

mwpt wrote: »

Well, the reason you hadn't any idea of this plan is that it's just a figment of your imagination. You choose to interpret events in such a way that says to you "German plan of EU dominance" but that doesn't make it reality.

But I don't believe that there is some underlying, long running master plan by the Germans (or some super group) to dominate Europe.

Well, it certainly seemed to me that this was the case last year, when I heard EU bureaucrats, dictated to by Germany, attempting to impose conditions on sovereign European nations that strongly disagreed with them – I felt this was outrageous. I've been reading up about this since then, and it appears that there certainly is a 'grand plan' for a political union, which I strongly disagree with.

Sapphire

kabayiri wrote: »

UK companies are outsourcing work there though. I know. I have been to the offices of one place.

Really nice offices too. Ironically, they have a problem recruiting good young staff with the right skills.

It's a gorgeous country altogether, though there are signs of severe poverty, left over after communism and also due to globalisation. The Gdansk shipyard employs something like 3,000 people now, when I believe there were 17,000 at one time.

Funnily enough, some Poles (in Poland) have told me that they think it would be in the best interests of Britain to leave the EU.

Out,_Vile_Jelly

I try and read a bit of Le Figaro each day to brush up my French. No mention of Cameron's amazing deal; perhaps because it's so laughably insignificant to the rest of the EU?

Somerset

michaels wrote: »

What are betfair saying?.

15.58 02/02/16
Staying In 1.41/1.43
Leaving EU 3.3/3.4


https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.118739911

mwpt

Sapphire wrote: »

Well, it certainly seemed to me that this was the case last year, when I heard EU bureaucrats, dictated to by Germany, attempting to impose conditions on sovereign European nations that strongly disagreed with them – I felt this was outrageous. I've been reading up about this since then, and it appears that there certainly is a 'grand plan' for a political union, which I strongly disagree with.

I read my post again and it may have come across harshly. I should have been more careful how I phrased stuff.

There may well be an acknowledged aim of bringing more political union. I am not that phased or interested in that side that I'd researched or read much about it.

But when you say dictated to by Germany, do you mean, as I said, Germans trying to get a say in how their cash was spent in the EU, in the form of bailout money?

When I consider the situation I've got to look at likelihoods. So I could consider the following two possibilities:

- Germany is a state, just like any other, with politicians and voters. The politicians have the aim of keeping themselves in power, which means keeping people voting for them. German's like being productive. They consider themselves hard workers and run a good economy. Another state in the EU runs a terrible economy, borrows way too much at low interest rates, fails to repay, but yet still enjoys social perks in excess of the German people. What is a politician to do? I'd consider that the outcome would be a politician who tries to negotiate the terms for handing over more cash that would lead to her own populace continuing to vote for her. This may seem like dictating to a sovereign nation but it's not, it's saying, if you want our cash, these are our terms. There is no dictating involved, the sovereign nation has the ability to refuse. The sovereign nation did not. This seems a relatively simple explanation.

Or

- There is a master plan formed many years ago by "a group" in Germany. I don't know what this group would have looked like, how they came together, how they managed to exert control and how they managed to predict how their plan would unfold leaving other nations indebted to them. They also had to pass this master plan down through the years, keeping everyone in the know silent, exert influence across many spheres, get the Euro currency implemented, know in advance how the southern states economies would evolve, and so forth. And now that their plan is reaching fruition that are in the admiral situation of handing over their tax money to these other nations in return for the glorious power of saying "please don't spend it foolishly again". After this, I don't know exactly what comes next, what the exact plan to gain total domination is.

I know which one seems the most likely to me and I also know that humans luuuuurve a good conspiracy. This isn't meant to cause offence but it's very seductive to think "all you sheeple have been blinded, but I know the real truth, I can see it for what it is".

Sapphire

mwpt wrote: »

I read my post again and it may have come across harshly. I should have been more careful how I phrased stuff.

There may well be an acknowledged aim of bringing more political union. I am not that phased or interested in that side that I'd researched or read much about it.

You didn't come across too harshly at all.

I do believe there is an acknowledged aim of bringing more political union, hence the term 'ever-greater political union' (which doesn't just embrace economic matters, but the laws of individual countries and how they go about fulfilling the wishes of the nationals in each country, via their elected politicians, i.e. not EU bureaucrats). However, a 'political union' was never agreed to by the citizens of the EU, but appears to have been decided on by mainly German and French politicians and perhaps big business, so it is being imposed on Europe by stealth, under the guise of 'economic union'. This is probably what I object to the most. I don't think this is a conspiracy theory, but actual fact.

I become particularly alarmed when I hear from people in Poland that Germans are buying up places in Poland, in the lands that were taken from them as the result of their crimes during the Second World War. It's similar to what they did before the war, when they imported many of their citizens (allegedly pensioners) into the Free City of Gdansk in Poland, so that it ended up with a massive German population – and it's why you see so many Germans in Gdansk today.

CLAPTON

one doesn't really need to refer to conspiracy theories, rather most EU madness is group think by the great and good

Just recall how every Uk top business person was convinced it was essential to join the Euro, the BBC was 100% solid to join, most politicians across all parties, most political writers : all convinced by the group think dream.
Not many refer to those views these days.

It only takes one or two top EU people to sow the seeds for group think to do the rest : hence the madness of the Euro
Like all bureaucracies fault can never be acknowledged, so the Euro is fine, its just we need closer economic convergence to make it work.

mayonnaise

CLAPTON wrote: »

Just recall how every Uk top business person was convinced it was essential to join the Euro, the BBC was 100% solid to join, most politicians across all parties, most political writers : all convinced by the group think dream.

No, I don't recall this.

CLAPTON

mayonnaise wrote: »

No, I don't recall this.

well, there you go: I guess PC bigots have selective memories
although I am grateful for that scottish bigot who saved us for the group think parliament and kept us out of the euro.