EU Deal - Money still sent to other economies

angrypirate

CLAPTON wrote: »

well, there you go: I guess PC bigots have selective memories
although I am grateful for that scottish bigot who saved us for the group think parliament and kept us out of the euro.

There were a few number of doomsayers who were forcasting the UK to be in trouble if we didnt join the Euro. Surprisingly these are the same doomsayers who are forcasting us to be in trouble if we vote to leave the EU. (For the avoidance of doubt, Im being sarcastic. I realise it doesnt always come across very well on forums)

Sapphire

angrypirate wrote: »

There were a few number of doomsayers who were forcasting the UK to be in trouble if we didnt join the Euro. Surprisingly these are the same doomsayers who are forcasting us to be in trouble if we vote to leave the EU. (For the avoidance of doubt, Im being sarcastic. I realise it doesnt always come across very well on forums)

Yes, and thinking about it, attempting to force a political union onto countries that have little in common, have different national characters and histories, and different languages, is as ill-advised having a common currency for countries that have widely different economies. Precisely because there are such differences between these countries, attempting to impose some kind of 'liberum veto' system won't work, for obvious reasons (it didn't work even when operated within countries whose citizens were rooted within them). Europe is not like North America, which does have a common history.

Meanwhile having Germany dictating to countries in the EU, with no vote even for the countries in the EU, let alone the populations of those countries, is undemocratic and an outrage, in my view. No citizen voted for 'ever-greater political union' as far as I know; neither did we vote for unelected bureaucrats like the drunken Junker, who dispense orders left, right and centre to sovereign nations. A 'union' is being imposed by stealth, and thank goodness I woke up to that fact last year.

I think Britain would prove itself to be very weak if it stayed in the EU – but perhaps the indigenous population has lost the will to retain its independence and no longer values its history and culture (a la McDonnell and Corbyn, who obviously spit on their own nation). Or perhaps it is just too lazy to do much else than listen to vested interests whose main aim is to profit from cheap labour, and which couldn't care less about national identity. Meanwhile our health services and other structures within the infrastructure collapse under the strain of so many extra people, making things more and more difficult for the indigenous population (including severely ill old people who have paid in all their lives, some of whom actually fought for their country).

mwpt

Sapphire wrote: »

Meanwhile having Germany dictating to countries in the EU, with no vote even for the countries in the EU, let alone the populations of those countries, is undemocratic and an outrage, in my view.

This keeps coming up. I'd like to know if I'm missing some information. Could you be more specific, which situations are you talking about when Germany dictated to other countries?

RJP33

mayonnaise wrote: »

No, I don't recall this.

I do, distinctly. 'Disaster for UK business'.

Virtually the same fear mongering arguments are out in force again now and no more true.

michaels

I am worried I vie wthis debate through a prism. My perspective is that the 'renegotiation', because it highlights how little influence the UK govt has, is actually probably a vote loser rather than a vote winner when it comes to whether we stay in the EU.

I would be interested to hear the views of EU supporters on whether they think the renegotiaton will have increased or reduced the number of people who will vote to stay.

kabayiri

michaels wrote: »

...

I would be interested to hear the views of EU supporters on whether they think the renegotiaton will have increased or reduced the number of people who will vote to stay.

Renegotiation?

Cameron needs the temporary support from the other countries to keep UK voters on the IN campaign side.

That's all it is. There isn't an awful lot of love for the UK outlook from other EU members. We have been seen as awkward outsiders for decades.

I'm slightly surprised he managed to come back with something written down. It could yet be watered down.

RJP33

michaels wrote: »

I am worried I vie wthis debate through a prism. My perspective is that the 'renegotiation', because it highlights how little influence the UK govt has, is actually probably a vote loser rather than a vote winner when it comes to whether we stay in the EU.

It also highlights how insincere and what a poor negotiator Cameron is. Watching him trying to sell this as a great deal in Parliament now is cringe inducing.

Instead of asking for something significant like an opt out from free movement he's asked for virtually nothing and got less.

Thrugelmir

Sapphire wrote: »

it appears that there certainly is a 'grand plan' for a political union, which I strongly disagree with.

There has always been a long term plan for full integration ever since France and Germany dreamt up the idea of the EU.

Sapphire

mwpt wrote: »

This keeps coming up. I'd like to know if I'm missing some information. Could you be more specific, which situations are you talking about when Germany dictated to other countries?

I didn't particularly want to mention the specific that alerted me to it, because it would again raise 'arguments' about 'bigots', 'racists' ad nauseum.

Very well. What altered me to it last year was:

1. Frau Merkel declaring that refugees from Syria would be welcome in Germany, when it was as clear as daylight that this would open the floodgates to all kinds of individuals posing as refugees and travelling on false passports from Africa, the Middle East and Asia (primarily Muslim ones) aiming at much more than Germany.

2. Junker attempting to force migrant 'quotas' onto countries that very clearly did not want them, and attempting to bully them. I thought this was absolutely outrageous.

No votes were taken from the EU countries, let alone their citizens, to ascertain whether this was what they actually wanted, and there was no discussion on the potential implications of such decisions.

That these people have failed miserably in stemming the flow and protecting the indigenous citizens of Europe is yet another indication (to me) of the miserable failure that the EU is. (It's sort of similar to the failure of the Euro, though of course in a different sphere.)

Sapphire

Thrugelmir wrote: »

There has always been a long term plan for full integration ever since France and Germany dreamt up the idea of the EU.

Apparently so – but I wasn't aware of it until last year, and I certainly don't remember being asked to vote on it. To me, it is quite obvious it would not work, for reasons given above.