If we vote for Brexit what happens

CLAPTON

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I'm despondent because I know the average person who doesn't come on forums like this, who doesn't watch every debate, interview, look at articles and try to be an informed voter will come on Thursday and base their vote purely on what they've been fed through the idiot box. So not voting to leave because you cannot align yourself with Boris, Gove, Farage or any other Leave campaigner who you hate is folly, that should not be a valid reason to vote Remain. Whoever does that will be doing themselves a dis-service in this vote because it is not an general election.

don't be despondent : it is part of the democratic process; people make up their own minds in various weird and wonderful ways and who is to say they are wrong?

Sapphire

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Sadly, in a way, yes.

But this vote should not be conducted that way, since the choice isn't for Boris or Dave. It's not for a Labour or Conservative government. After it we'll still have a Conservative government, I'm sure most realise this. The personalities are irrelevant, your beliefs about the issues that concern you and your wider responsibilities as a citizen should be the influence on how you choose to vote.

Agree. For me, it is primarily about democracy (for all the countries of Europe, not just the UK), which we would not get by belonging to an EU that is aspiring towards an 'ever-closer political union'. It is about resentment for the fact that this was attempted by stealth, and that the idea was planted many years ago, but we never got a vote on it. It is about being able to boot our own politicians when they are not up to scratch; about not merging the armies of Europe; about having our own laws; about not having completely open borders (they may have been OK among countries with roughly similar economies, but they are not working in the current dangerous political situation); about not being involved with the Eurozone and its failure; and about maintaining our sovereignty and right to self-determination.

To me, it is madness to think that countries with completely different histories and cultures could be forced into this German idea of a 'political union' (first mooted by Germany in the 1920s and attempted by force during the Second World War). An economic union between countries with completely different economies – some wealthier than others – also does not work. The way the EU is going now, it is going to fall apart – there is increasing unrest and unhappiness all over Europe about the mess that is being created by people like Merkel and Juncker, who appear to threaten and order sovereign nations around.

It's about our country not being manipulated by the unholy alliance of Bilderberg elites who care only about their own profits and nothing about the people of Europe, together with cultural marxists such as Frau Merkel.

It's about a lot of other things, too, but these are just some of the reasons I'll be voting Leave. If the vote goes the other way, then we'll only have ourselves to blame for the consequences – especially for future generations.

TrickyTree83

CLAPTON wrote: »

don't be despondent : it is part of the democratic process; people make up their own minds in various weird and wonderful ways and who is to say they are wrong?

I would say it would be wrong to base your vote to remain on the dislike of a figurehead within the Leave campaign.

I would say it would be wrong to base your vote to remain on the perceived racism and xenophobia that is linked to the Leave campaign.

I would say it would be wrong to base your vote to remain on some of the arguments made by the official Leave campaign. Some of the things they have said have been complete rubbish, like putting the EU membership fee into the NHS whilst maintaining the other commitments that the EU currently fund - it won't make a dent! But there are others who do not get the same air time on the idiot box who make much more compelling arguments to Leave which I believe to be correct.

Would you vote to remain because of any of the above reasons? Because you can be damn sure there will be some who do. The Leave campaign has been run badly, an honest, common sense, pragmatic campaign moving away from the traditional way politics has been ran in this country for decades would have made the world of difference I believe.

I had the impression you were a leave voter, have you changed your mind? If not I fail to see why you would disagree with these points.

Sapphire

I forgot to add this quote, which enhances part of my gripe:

'Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.'

Jean Monnet - EU founding father

tincans6

CLAPTON wrote: »

could be that immigrants don't bother to vote

Yes that right, 'immigrants' are one amorphous blob that don't bother to vote.
A low opinion of your fellow citizens - or do they have the wrong skin colour for you ?


For the benefit of the thick, to vote in a general election you have to be a British Citizen or qualifying Commonwealth citizen or RoI citizen resident here.

There has been a fall in turnout across almost all ages and economic classes according to MORI, except Black and Minority voters (which kind of !!!!es on your perverted chips) but the standout figures are;

18-24 2010 50% turnout 2015 42% turnout

DE social 2010 59% turnout 2015 56% turnout

In this both these group turnout among women has increased.

BME 2010 51% turnout 2015 56% turnout


Here's the link

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3575/How-Britain-voted-in-2015.aspx

tincans6

Scarpacci wrote: »

Remain or not, are you sure you want to live in a country where you seemingly view about 40% of the population with such contempt?

Is it comprehension you struggle with or a sense of humour.

I only said it needs to match those complacent Remainers who don't bother to vote. Every remainer I know is filled with dread at the thought of leaving so I hope they all vote. And it was only a little tease.

Help is available at the polling station if you can't fill the ballot paper in - just ask at the desk.

tincans6

Sapphire wrote: »

I forgot to add this quote, which enhances part of my gripe:

'Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.'

Jean Monnet - EU founding father

Except it's pretty much debunked that he said anything of the kind.
No 'letter to a friend' in 1952 or speech at the UN (1952) has ever been unearthed where he said this.

But the conspiracy theorists will believe anything - because they want to.

wotsthat

Rinoa wrote: »

Leicester were 5000/1 last August. Still won though.

Maybe you should've had a £10 accumulator on Leicester and Brexit.

You'd currently be 'sweating' bricks.

StevieJ

Sapphire wrote: »

I forgot to add this quote, which enhances part of my gripe:

'Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.'

Jean Monnet - EU founding father

Great quote, unfortunately Monet didn't actually say that A bit like Rum, Sodomy and the Lash being attributed to Churchill (although Churchill thought it was very good and wished he had said it). Pretty typical of the anti-EU misinformation bandied about.

The following quote [as above] is often misascribed to Jean Monnet — in fact it is a paraphrase of a characterization of Monnet's intentions by British Conservative Adrian Hilton:

Monnet is reported to have expressed somewhat similar sentiments, but without the notion of intentional deception, saying "Via money Europe could become political in five years" and "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal."

http://boards.fool.co.uk/and-yes-it-was-always-intended-as-an-eventual-13337896.aspx

TrickyTree83

tincans6 wrote: »

Except it's pretty much debunked that he said anything of the kind.
No 'letter to a friend' in 1952 or speech at the UN (1952) has ever been unearthed where he said this.

But the conspiracy theorists will believe anything - because they want to.

No, but he did say at the US National Press Club in 1952 that there should be a European army (http://aei.pitt.edu/14364/1/S4.pdf) , the Pleven plan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleven_plan

Make of that what you will.

In fact later on in those notes from that speech he does indeed make reference to "les etats-unis d'europe" which translates to "the united states of europe".

I wonder if my finding this goes completely ignored by those claiming it never took place.