If we vote for Brexit what happens

A_Pict_In_A_Past_Life

gfplux wrote: »

Rinoa, I am not denying that there is fun and games over the location of the Drug (medicines) agency. There is a lot of competition as it means a lot of extra jobs and tax take to the winner.
Please do not perpetuate the myth that the agency as you say is "run by the UK". It is a EU agency run by the EU that happens to presently be in Britain.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Medicines_Agency

What are your views on a non-major EU country getting the opportunity as posted earlier?



BTW, the UK equivalent of the EU drugs/medicines agency has been discussed before in these forums.
We already have our own regulation.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/welcome-to-our-new-mhra-website

Thrugelmir

gfplux wrote: »

There is a lot of competition as it means a lot of extra jobs and tax take to the winner.

Half the existing staff are expected to leave if the agency is relocated to undesirable city. Employs less than 900 people so not significant in employment terms. As a direct comparison GSK employs around 16,000 in the UK.

always_sunny

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Half the existing staff are expected to leave if the agency is relocated to undesirable city. Employs less than 900 people so not significant in employment terms. As a direct comparison GSK employs around 16,000 in the UK.

Makes you wonder why the UK wants to even hold on to these agencies!

Thrugelmir

always_sunny wrote: »

Makes you wonder why the UK wants to even hold on to these agencies!

Obviously there's a lot of inter related activity. Global drug companies base their European operations in London. They may well follow.

always_sunny

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Obviously there's a lot of inter related activity. Global drug companies base their European operations in London. They may well follow.

Global drug companies (due to the nature of being global) have presence in many places.

Some are British (i.e. GSK) some became British (i.e AstraZeneca) some are foreign.
Are you telling me that say French Sanofi or German Bayer or Swiss Roche base their European operations in London?

Pharma in the UK has been declining for a while compared to other EU countries.
(This is not Brexit related)

A_Medium_Size_Jock

always_sunny wrote: »

Pharma in the UK has been declining for a while compared to other EU countries.
(This is not Brexit related)

Any evidence for that statement?
Because I see lots of UK investment; GSK; Alnylam (in preference to EU27); Fujifilm; Intertek; .......... well there's loads if you look.

So do you have evidence or is it yet more twaddle?

always_sunny

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Any evidence for that statement?
Because I see lots of UK investment; GSK; Alnylam (in preference to EU27); Fujifilm; Intertek; .......... well there's loads if you look.

So do you have evidence or is it yet more twaddle?

Any evidence that it is not? Wiki has a nice summary so I will be lazy:

Pharmaceutical employment has declined since then to 53,000 in 2014. (-35% since 2007) [4] This compares to 114,000 as of 2015 in Germany, [5] 92,000 as of 2014 in France [6] and 723,000 in the European Union as a whole. [7] In the United States 281,440 people work in pharmaceutical industry as of 2016. [8]

GSK is a British company so investment in the UK is to be expected, The UK is a big hub for Pharma R&D but not necessarily production.

(R&D is slightly bigger than France but smaller than Switzerland, Production is bigger than Spain but half of Switzerland)

This is not a result of Brexit but being going on for a while. There will always be investments, the UK is a large country (64M) but in context of Pharma (this reply is in relations to the agency departure from the UK as a result of Brexit) the UK is not 'THE' country in Europe (and the EU) with the biggest stake in the industry.

Do you have evidence supporting otherwise or "is it yet more twaddle?"

A_Medium_Size_Jock

always_sunny wrote: »

Any evidence that it is not? Wiki has a nice summary so I will be lazy:


GSK is a British company so investment in the UK is to be expected, The UK is a big hub for Pharma R&D but not necessarily production.

(R&D is slightly bigger than France but smaller than Switzerland, Production is bigger than Spain but half of Switzerland)

This is not a result of Brexit but being going on for a while. There will always be investments, the UK is a large country (64M) but in context of Pharma (this reply is in relations to the agency departure from the UK as a result of Brexit) the UK is not 'THE' country in Europe (and the EU) with the biggest stake in the industry.

Do you have evidence supporting otherwise or "is it yet more twaddle?"

Hey, you made the comment so you back it up with fact.

What you posted is very nice but you have not proven that "Pharma in the UK has been declining for a while compared to other EU countries."
Here's why:

That which you refer to says employment - not production, turnover or any useful statistic.
Increased mechanisation has led to reductions in the number of people employed in many areas yet production has remained stable or increased, car manufacture being just one example from many. Were you not aware?

Also from your Wiki link:

One in five of the world's biggest-selling prescription drugs were developed in the UK.

The UK is home to GlaxoSmithKline and AstraZeneca, respectively the world's fifth- and sixth-largest pharmaceutical companies measured by 2009 market share

The UK has the largest pharmaceutical R&D expenditure of any European nation, accounting for 23% of the total; followed by France (20%), Germany (19%), and Switzerland (11%)

Now okay, Wiki isn't exactly a definitive source.
The pharmaceutical industry seems tight-lipped about facts & figures & in honesty I CBA to trawl through mounds but here's a few tidbits:

From December:

Manufacturing provided the largest contribution to quarterly growth, largely due to a strong increase in the volatile pharmaceuticals industry.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/economicoutputandproductivity/output/bulletins/indexofproduction/dec2016

June:

ONS figures show pharmaceutical industry leads UK industrial growth

https://www.manufacturingchemist.com/news/article_page/ONS_figures_show_pharmaceutical_industry_leads_UK_industrial_growth/118774

Pharma surge boosts UK manufacturing output

https://www.ft.com/content/283f0730-2d56-11e6-a18d-a96ab29e3c95

always_sunny

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Hey, you made the comment so you back it up with fact.

What you posted is very nice but you have not proven that "Pharma in the UK has been declining for a while compared to other EU countries."
Here's why:

That which you refer to says employment - not production, turnover or any useful statistic.
Increased mechanisation has led to reductions in the number of people employed in many areas yet production has remained stable or increased, car manufacture being just one example from many. Were you not aware?

I am afraid that whatever proof is presented to you, you will still believe otherwise and that is fine. If you want to believe that the UK is 'THE' leading country not just in Europe but in the world when it comes to pharma go for it.

It is not about declining compared other EU countries, but as an industry the size and presence today. Have a look below.

Mechanisation may contribute to a decline in employment (R&D would be not affected) but not on production (UK is a net importer of pharmaceutical). I don't know if you are aware but in terms of productivity (since you bring up mechanisation) the UK ranks not so well.

As I said, this has nothing to do with Brexit but given the UK departure from the EU keeping an EU agency in a non-EU* country that is not so the leading one for the industry would make little sense.

PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT IN EUROPE
EFPIA 2014 (€ million) Austria 650 Belgium 2,453 Bulgaria n.a. Croatia 40 Cyprus 85 Czech Republic 77 Denmark 1,453 Estonia n.a. Finland 197 France 4,564 Germany 5,813 Greece 80 Hungary 158 Ireland 305 Italy 1,350 Latvia n.a. Lithuania n.a. Malta n.a. Netherlands 642 Norway 124 Poland 274 Portugal 85 Romania 180 Russia 197 Serbia n.a. Slovakia n.a. Slovenia 161 Spain 953 Sweden 765 Switzerland 5,338 Turkey 75 United Kingdom 4,868

PHARMACEUTICAL PRODUCTION
EFPIA 2014 (€ million) Austria 2,776 Belgium 9,299 Bulgaria 115 Croatia 412 Cyprus 180 Czech Republic n.a. Denmark 8,725 Estonia n.a. Finland 1,599 France 20,981 Germany 30,401 Greece 857 Hungary 2,629 Ireland 19,305 Italy 28,696 Latvia 120 Lithuania n.a. Malta n.a. Netherlands 6,180 Norway 745 Poland 2,782 Portugal 1,486 Romania 655 Russia 5,316 Serbia n.a. Slovakia n.a. Slovenia 872 Spain 13,953 Sweden 6,475 Switzerland 35,819 Turkey 3,227 United Kingdom 17,483ustria 2,776 Belgium 9,299 Bulgaria 115 Croatia 412 Cyprus 180 Czech Republic n.a. Denmark 8,725 Estonia n.a. Finland 1,599 France 20,981 Germany 30,401 Greece 857 Hungary 2,629 Ireland 19,305 Italy 28,696 Latvia 120 Lithuania n.a. Malta n.a. Netherlands 6,180 Norway 745 Poland 2,782 Portugal 1,486 Romania 655 Russia 5,316 Serbia n.a. Slovakia n.a. Slovenia 872 Spain 13,953 Sweden 6,475 Switzerland 35,819 Turkey 3,227 United Kingdom 17,483

PHARMACEUTICAL MARKET VALUE (at ex–factory prices)
EFPIA 2014 (€ million) Austria 3,366 Belgium 4,502 Bulgaria 879 Croatia 630 Cyprus 183 Czech Republic 2,050 Denmark 2,184 Estonia 249 Finland 2,165 France 27,366 Germany 29,150 Greece 3,560 Hungary 2,009 Iceland 108 Ireland 1,768 Italy 21,538 Latvia 174 Lithuania 343 Malta 77 Netherlands 4,560 Norway 1,684 Poland 5,246 Portugal 2,817 Romania 2,765 Russia 14,521 Serbia 564 Slovakia 1,088 Slovenia 537 Spain 14,124 Sweden 3,884 Switzerland 4,210 Turkey 6,715 United Kingdom 18,908

(The European Federation of Pharmaceutical Industries and Associations (EFPIA), so of course they will make UK number look worse)

And yes, there are investments coming in, so 2016 or 2017 will look better than 2014 but still not as large as other countries or when it was at its peak.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

always_sunny wrote: »

I am afraid that whatever proof is presented to you, you will still believe otherwise and that is fine. If you want to believe that the UK is 'THE' leading country not just in Europe but in the world when it comes to pharma go for it.

Deleted waffle

And yes, there are investments coming in, so 2016 or 2017 will look better than 2014 but still not as large as other countries or when it was at its peak.

Wriggling will do you no good.
I have not said anywhere that I "want to believe that the UK is 'THE' leading country not just in Europe but in the world when it comes to pharma".
Show me where I have?

You say:

always_sunny wrote: »

Pharma in the UK has been declining for a while compared to other EU countries.

I ask you to prove that statement.
So far you cannot.
Current production figures, numbers of employees etc. etc. do not prove that the decline in UK pharmaceuticals is any worse than elsewhere in the EU.
Therefore your statement is untrue; in other words a lie.

It seems that you have not learned the lessons of a failed "Project Fear" campaign although sadly you are not alone in that.