If we vote for Brexit what happens

CLAPTON

cells wrote: »

the number of jobs in an economy is not fixed yes but growing economies will have more jobs than stagnant or declining economies of the same size for obvious reasons.

there is also the simple fact that businesses are more efficient in growing nations because to mal-invest is harder while declining economies will need to make investments that they know will have a much more finite life

Take for instance ten car factories. In a growing economy all 10 will be busy and a 11th one can be built when the demand is more than the 10 can cope with. Compare that to falling economy. 10 car factories and one will have to close or all of the 10 will have to reduce output and productivity. Which car industry do you think you would like to work in the declining one or the growing one? one where they are firing 1,000 workers a year or one where they are hiring 1,000 workers a year?

tell me
do you get a kick out of seeing the east european economies being destroyed
do you open a fresh bottle every time you see the population of poland/romania/bulgaria has fallen a little etc
do you send Hamish a congratulatory email

cells

CLAPTON wrote: »

tell me
do you get a kick out of seeing the east european economies being destroyed
do you open a fresh bottle every time you see the population of poland/romania/bulgaria has fallen a little etc
do you send Hamish a congratulatory email

the migrants from those nations send capital back which helps accelerate that nations development

In most cases they also have better and more productive lives here so overall for the human race its a win win

at least you haven't mentioned your old hundreds of millions dead nonsense for a few hours. movement in the right direction

cells

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

It's had decades of falling population.

And it's now a hell-hole compared to when it had far more people...

Houses are cheaper and traffic congestion is lower though, so I suppose the crumbling infrastructure, massive unemployment, and high crime rates are a small price to pay for that.

We can draw some parallels in this country too

Between the last two census 2011 and 2001 the fastest growing was London while the slowest growing was the north east.

Clapton will come along any minute now and explain why the north east is a great example to follow and their people are healthier wealthier and their tube system is never overcrowded

Maybe he could dig further and look at the towns that are shrinking. Four authorities saw a decrease in population in the North East: Sunderland (3.2 per cent), South Tyneside (3.1 per cent), Redcar and Cleveland (2.9 per cent), and Middlesbrough (2.0 per cent).

Guess what those figures might have been without immigrants? Possibly 3-5% lower. I've lived in Middlesbrough and worked in Redcar and all I can say is that I no longer live in Middlesbrough or work in Redcar. despite all the fantasticness Clapton says a falling population would have the truth is the place is in decline and there are plenty of empty business units and retail units and even a lot of boarded up homes (this is from 2011 no idea how its faired since). Guess what would happen to the existing retail commercial and residential building if another 5% of the population goes, and then another 5%, and another.....

mwpt

cells wrote: »

We can draw some parallels in this country too

Between the last two census 2011 and 2001 the fastest growing was London while the slowest growing was the north east.

Clapton will come along any minute now and explain why the north east is a great example to follow and their people are healthier wealthier and their tube system is never overcrowded

Note that I'm ostensibly on your side of the debate here but could you explain why immigration to London from Poland results in both London and Poland being better off, but the same thing doesn't apply to London and the north of England?

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

It's had decades of falling population.

And it's now a hell-hole compared to when it had far more people...

Houses are cheaper and traffic congestion is lower though, so I suppose the crumbling infrastructure, massive unemployment, and high crime rates are a small price to pay for that.

detroit is not a hell hole because of falling population

it is a hell hole because there is no work there due to the collapse of their car industry
no work means that the young and able leave
hence it become a hell hole

cause and effect is always worth considering and sometimes considering the overall picture rather than just the narrow mantra that small population is bad and large is good.

CLAPTON

cells wrote: »

the migrants from those nations send capital back which helps accelerate that nations development

In most cases they also have better and more productive lives here so overall for the human race its a win win

at least you haven't mentioned your old hundreds of millions dead nonsense for a few hours. movement in the right direction

so for other countries and cities of the world, an increasing population isn't necessary for economic growth : that is unique to the UK and Detroit.

It would be good to hear the precise circumstances where a falling population is good and where a failing population is bad.

It would be good to hear your views on the UK balance of trade and our growing inability to produce enough essential goods : does the capital outflow of the foreigners help of hinder or does balance of trade no longer matter.

no need to repeat the issue of the consequences of the immediate free movement of people, as you have agreed it would be totally impractical

Generali

It was always going to be that the Great EU debate fell into a horrible morass about immigration and the [insert racial epithet of choice] taking our jobs, our homes and our wimmin

CLAPTON

Generali wrote: »

It was always going to be that the Great EU debate fell into a horrible morass about immigration and the [insert racial epithet of choice] taking our jobs, our homes and our wimmin.

is that just a general comment ?

or do you feel it is invalid to discuss the effect on wages and employment and productivity and investment of immigration?
or do you feel it is invalid to discuss the costs etc of providing extra infrastructure / housing etc for the larger population or do you share Hamish and Cells view that the money comes from the money tree (and anyway we should have done that years ago in which case it would definitely be 'free')?

do you think that the balance of payment matter any more or was that a 20th century concern?

obviously the questions are rhetorical and there is no obligation to address any

Generali

CLAPTON wrote: »

is that just a general comment ?

or do you feel it is invalid to discuss the effect on wages and employment and productivity and investment of immigration?
or do you feel it is invalid to discuss the costs etc of providing extra infrastructure / housing etc for the larger population or do you share Hamish and Cells view that the money comes from the money tree (and anyway we should have done that years ago in which case it would definitely be 'free')?

do you think that the balance of payment matter any more or was that a 20th century concern?

obviously the questions are rhetorical and there is no obligation to address any

I don't think discussing immigration is invalid, far from it. There are lots of economic and social concerns that it's great to discuss.

The fact is that there are a huge number of other things that do and don't happen as a result of the UK being in the EU. It's a bit depressing that it all seems to boil down to whether we need pot washers or brain surgeons or neither to migrate to the UK

CLAPTON

Generali wrote: »

I don't think discussing immigration is invalid, far from it. There are lots of economic and social concerns that it's great to discuss.

The fact is that there are a huge number of other things that do and don't happen as a result of the UK being in the EU. It's a bit depressing that it all seems to boil down to whether we need pot washers or brain surgeons or neither to migrate to the UK

Real people, including yourself, are in fact very concerned about their level of pay and their housing situation and the general environment around them. Although its very depressing to observe but some people find them so important, they uproot themselves and travel many thousands of miles to find a better overall life.

But I agree, I am constantly disappointed that no-one wants to discuss the consequences of the EU tariff barriers and the harm they have done for the last 60 years or the balance of trade or the employment situation in Southern European countries or the failure to close down the Euro or the consequence of over regulations or the lack of democracy in the EU etc etc.

But there is only so much one can do.