If we vote for Brexit what happens

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

CLAPTON wrote: »

but you yourself believe in the productivity lump of labour theory which is why you believe we need massive levels of immigration rather that simply develop more productive ways of doing thing.

There is no such thing as a 'productivity lump of labour fallacy'.

It's something you made-up to try and dispute the lump of labour fallacy, which is a well understood and accepted concept in economics.

If you want to try and claim productivity gains in conjunction with higher per capita taxation could compensate for a shrinking workforce with a growing old-aged population to support then say so and provide worked examples of reasoning to back it up.

Of course you might also want to include exactly how you'll convince the population to accept higher taxation....

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

There is no such thing as a 'productivity lump of labour fallacy'.

It's something you made-up to try and dispute the lump of labour fallacy, which is a well understood and accepted concept in economics.

If you want to try and claim productivity gains in conjunction with higher per capita taxation could compensate for a shrinking workforce with a growing old-aged population to support then say so and provide worked examples of reasoning to back it up.

Of course you might also want to include exactly how you'll convince the population to accept higher taxation....

I, 100% agree that the idea that there are only so many jobs is a nonsense.
I do believe that a flood of cheap competent labour into the country does, in general depress wages (and also require large spending on housing and infrastructure.)
However, in discussions about automation and potential productivity gains you have surmised such productivity improvements would lead to a collapse in taxation and poverty for the masses. You have further posted that you believe that with existing technology, there are massive possible gains but again you believe this would lead to collapse of tax revenue and society.

I'm unclear in what possible way, you can't understand that increased productivity can produce more for any given size of labour force. So e.g. a declining labour force could produce an increasing volume of goods and services.

Sapphire

CLAPTON wrote: »

but you yourself believe in the productivity lump of labour theory which is why you believe we need massive levels of immigration rather that simply develop more productive ways of doing thing.

Some people 'believe' in increasing the population at any cost because they profit from buy to let. :cool:

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Sapphire wrote: »

Some people 'believe' in increasing the population at any cost because they profit from buy to let. :cool:

That's nice.

Can you give some examples?

Sapphire

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

I actually can't decide if you could really be ignorant (in the literal sense of the word) enough to think like that or if you're just using such demonstrably false assertions to promote an agenda of division and nationalism.

OK – put it down to ignorance, then, if you like, and I hope you enjoy your 'brave new world'. (Congratulations on deciding not to use the default words 'fascist' and 'racist' in your post, by the way.)

kabayiri

mwpt wrote: »

...
It'll take a long long time but it'll happen.

If you're so convinced I'd be off to the bookies to put a bet on if I were you.

Let's just hope the bookie is more a Star Trek fan rather than some dystopian vision like Blade Runner.

gfplux

Sapphire wrote: »

It's not those I'm concerned about. The majority of Poles that come to the UK, for instance, are great. I think I mentioned earlier that I'd had English workers do work for me in the past and found them amazingly rude, surly and incompetent, and thought they wished to do as little as possible in a given time. The Poles are not like that – most have a very strong work ethic, are polite and I have no problem with them working here. I do think it's wrong, however, that benefits can be claimed from British taxpayers for their children once they go back to Poland – that is just not right, since they are not British nationals.

I also do wonder what has happened to work ethics of some native Brits, and whether having so many foreigners working here is encouraging the Brits not to work and become dependent on taxpayers' benefits. With jobs decreasing with every year due to advances in technology, what is going to happen to the increasing numbers of people without jobs (hence my mention of rookeries above


If the 'powers' to deport undesirables already exist, then why are they not being exercised? If they are not real 'powers', the law must be changed to make them real. If they are real, then those who are not using them must be held to account, so that the problem can be solved.

You are wrong about Polish workers claiming child benefit from the UK when they go home. They can do that ONLY if they remain resident in the UK.

I like your idea that being members of the EU has made British workers lazy. Don't you think you are stretching that a little?

At least we agree on your last point. British Politiciens are not doing their job. However another poster thinks that if we leave the EU our Politiciens will suddenly wake up and do their job. That beggars belief!

gfplux

Carl31 wrote: »

Its not only the fact that freedom of movement allows EU migrants to come here for their own personal benefit, its what they leave behind. Every person that comes here to work, and add to the UK economy, is not working in their native country, meaning their economy is weakening. If you look at population stats in Romania, Poland, Bulgaria over the past decade or so, population totals have remained pretty flat, or had reduced, Financially, these areas are just going to weaken, and become more and more of a drain on the EU, where the UK, Germany etc.. will get stronger and stronger. The idea of a balanced and thriving EU just wont happen where people are allowed to flock to the richest areas, it will just become pockets of overcrowded wealthy areas, and large areas of poverty

You are describing exactly the state of the U.K. With more and more of the population moving to the South East of England. Have you any proposals to change that?

gfplux

Tromking wrote: »

Another Country on mainland Europe finds solace in right-wing politics.
Do we want to continue the connection we have with this increasingly fascist continent?

I don't think the UK is as far right as you suggest. Yes there are a lot of signs but there is still hope.
Sorry misread your post. What mainland country do you refer to.

cells

Its not only the fact that freedom of movement allows EU migrants to come here for their own personal benefit, its what they leave behind. Every person that comes here to work, and add to the UK economy, is not working in their native country, meaning their economy is weakening. If you look at population stats in Romania, Poland, Bulgaria over the past decade or so, population totals have remained pretty flat, or had reduced, Financially, these areas are just going to weaken, and become more and more of a drain on the EU, where the UK, Germany etc.. will get stronger and stronger. The idea of a balanced and thriving EU just wont happen where people are allowed to flock to the richest areas, it will just become pockets of overcrowded wealthy areas, and large areas of poverty

If you look at the GDP of poland since 2000-2013 it is up 3x while France is up 2x

Per capita incomes are of course lower in Poland but the gap is narrowing. If poland economy continues to close the gap at the rate it has been then poland per capita income will reach 75% of France within 25 years or close to Italy per capita income. The idea of eternal poverty or second world nations will fall away

However I agree with you that some countries in europe will do better than others. We already see this in cities with places like London powering ahead of rUK (gone from 20% of GDP to 30% over 20 years). That will be true on a European level too with some countries pulling ahead. I hope that will be the UK pulling past rUK with our somewhat more pro business attitude and growing population. Some estimates put the UK as Europes biggest economy in 30 years time.