If we vote for Brexit what happens

Sapphire

mwpt wrote: »

The world moves inexorably forward and as we gradually civilise, the notion of nationalism will slowly die off.

It'll take a long long time but it'll happen.

This is a utopian vision that, as history has proved, will sadly never come to pass. When it comes down to it, humans, like any other species, will always protect their own cliques via a variety of mechanisms – such as religion, and extreme left or rightisms. At the moment, in the West some people have the luxury to contemplate 'the notion of nationalism slowly dying off'. However, once the balance that has been achieved in the West is disturbed via things like population pressure and the resultant stresses this brings (poverty for the majority and so on), or perceived threats to safety and security, humans in various groups that have history, culture, etc., in common will fight groups they feel threatened by like rats in a cage – 'humanitarianism' towards the entire world will be confined to the annals of history. This is inevitable – humans, like other animal species, do not change, despite their veneer of 'civilisation' in some areas of the world. Disturbances linked to this are already visible in the rise of opposition movements on the European Continent, for example, and one can only see this trend getting worse.

Thrugelmir

mwpt wrote: »

The world moves inexorably forward and as we gradually civilise, the notion of nationalism will slowly die off.

Suggest you spend some time in the Middle East. Then you'll realise that historic issues never go away. Same as a united Ireland, a devolved Scotland, or the Basque people regaining control of their homeland in France and Spain. Nationalism is very real and never far below the surface.

Humans are selfish creatures. Everything is liberal until it impacts someone personally.

antrobus

Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno.

mwpt

Sapphire wrote: »

This is a utopian vision that, as history has proved, will sadly never come to pass. When it comes down to it, humans, like any other species, will always protect their own cliques via a variety of mechanisms – such as religion, and extreme left or rightisms. At the moment, in the West some people have the luxury to contemplate 'the notion of nationalism slowly dying off'. However, once the balance that has been achieved in the West is disturbed via things like population pressure and the resultant stresses this brings (poverty for the majority and so on), or perceived threats to safety and security, humans in various groups that have history, culture, etc., in common will fight groups they feel threatened by like rats in a cage – 'humanitarianism' towards the entire world will be confined to the annals of history. This is inevitable – humans, like other animal species, do not change, despite their veneer of 'civilisation' in some areas of the world. Disturbances linked to this are already visible in the rise of opposition movements on the European Continent, for example, and one can only see this trend getting worse.

I disagree that "one can only see this trend getting worse". I can see ebbs and flows in this of course but the long term trend is toward increased prosperity and just being generally better to each other.

Sapphire

mwpt wrote: »

I disagree that "one can only see this trend getting worse". I can see ebbs and flows in this of course but the long term trend is toward increased prosperity and just being generally better to each other.

'Increased prosperity' only of a minority on the planet, though. Can you not see that even in the developed world, jobs are increasingly scarce due to developments in technology, and to the scarily growing population of the planet? Yes, there are some new types of job, but not enough to employ all who need to earn money to survive. There will be fewer and fewer jobs, and they will be increasingly low paid as the global corporations will pick and choose among those desperate to be employed (they don't care about nations or individuals, and politicians are in their pockets); consequently, there will be more and more strife.

I think the 'being generally better to each other' is a utopian view, again – a luxury for those who are living in relative prosperity.

mwpt

Sapphire wrote: »

'Increased prosperity' only of a minority on the planet, though. Can you not see that even in the developed world, jobs are increasingly scarce due to developments in technology, and to the scarily growing population of the planet? Yes, there are some new types of job, but not enough to employ all who need to earn money to survive. There will be fewer and fewer jobs, and they will be increasingly low paid as the global corporations will pick and choose among those desperate to be employed (they don't care about nations or individuals, and politicians are in their pockets); consequently, there will be more and more strife.

I think the 'being generally better to each other' is a utopian view, again – a luxury for those who are living in relative prosperity.

You are speculating on a gloomy future whereas I am simply looking back and noting the actual trend shows a continual upward movement of prosperity as a whole planet over the ages. I extrapolate forward from here and my conclusion is the long term trend will probably continue and we'll get more prosperous and more nice to each other.

I'm not saying there are no problems to overcome. I note that globalisation means prosperity shifting around rather than concentrating in wealthier countries. Companies strive and compete to eradicate costs which generally means cutting jobs. These are short term trends that do have a real effect on people so it isn't a surprise that people will form views based on this, but the long term trend is better.

CLAPTON

Generali wrote: »

Did you never read of the massacre of the London plumbers? It was a battle waged between indigenous plumbers and Polish invaders.

Polish people came to Wood Green to fix pipework and so on only to discover that there were indigenous plumbers already plying their trade, albeit in shoddy fashion.

The Poles weren't to be discouraged. With pipe bender and welding torch they systematically went from house-to-house killing indigenous plumbers as they found them. The waste pipes of N22 streamed red with blood although it was noted that the waste pipes that the Polish plumbers had been working on didn't back up as much...

It was the beginning of the end. The homeowners of London armed with bottles of gin drove the indigenous plumbers into Northern Kent and Up North (it's grim up north) where they voted UKIP.

All that remains of the Indigenous Plumbing Tribe of London is a plaque to their Elder, Bazalgette.



RIP

but you don't believe in the unlimited immediate free move of people do you ?

cells

Sapphire wrote: »

'Increased prosperity' only of a minority on the planet, though. Can you not see that even in the developed world, jobs are increasingly scarce due to developments in technology, and to the scarily growing population of the planet? Yes, there are some new types of job, but not enough to employ all who need to earn money to survive. There will be fewer and fewer jobs, and they will be increasingly low paid as the global corporations will pick and choose among those desperate to be employed (they don't care about nations or individuals, and politicians are in their pockets); consequently, there will be more and more strife.

I think the 'being generally better to each other' is a utopian view, again – a luxury for those who are living in relative prosperity.

that would sell well over at hpc

However in the real world, these evil greedy corporations are so terrible that they pay half of the full time working male adult population of the uk more than £38k

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Sapphire wrote: »

Can you not see that even in the developed world, jobs are increasingly scarce due to developments in technology, and to the scarily growing population of the planet? Yes, there are some new types of job, but not enough to employ all who need to earn money to survive. There will be fewer and fewer jobs, and they will be increasingly low paid as the global corporations will pick and choose among those desperate to be employed (they don't care about nations or individuals, and politicians are in their pockets); consequently, there will be more and more strife.

That entire rant is just so far off base I don't know where to start.

I actually can't decide if you could really be ignorant (in the literal sense of the word) enough to think like that or if you're just using such demonstrably false assertions to promote an agenda of division and nationalism.

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

That entire rant is just so far off base I don't know where to start.

I actually can't decide if you could really be ignorant (in the literal sense of the word) enough to think like that or if you're just using such demonstrably false assertions to promote an agenda of division and nationalism.

but you yourself believe in the productivity lump of labour theory which is why you believe we need massive levels of immigration rather that simply develop more productive ways of doing thing.