If we vote for Brexit what happens

Herzlos

CLAPTON wrote: »

so the EU are using the ex-pat people as a bargaining chip to force May to enable article 50 : quite disgusting.

Not at all, it's only the EU that isn't using the ex-pats as bargaining chips. EU has guaranteed their status as members of the EU right up until the UK changes the deal. The EU has literally nothing to assure about, because they aren't the ones producing the situation that will put them in jeopardy. They can't make further assurances beyond what they have, because they have no idea what crazy ideas May will suggest.

What do you want both the EU and May to say?

I know you hate the EU and foreigners, but you need to at least pretend to look at these things impartially.

TrickyTree83

Herzlos wrote: »

Not at all, it's only the EU that isn't using the ex-pats as bargaining chips. EU has guaranteed their status as members of the EU right up until the UK changes the deal. The EU has literally nothing to assure about, because they aren't the ones producing the situation that will put them in jeopardy. They can't make further assurances beyond what they have, because they have no idea what crazy ideas May will suggest.

What do you want both the EU and May to say?

I know you hate the EU and foreigners, but you need to at least pretend to look at these things impartially.

But lets not pretend that the UK government didn't plead with the EU to guarantee bi-lateral rights of citizens and the EU shut down the discussion saying no negotiation until Article 50. So by implication the EU is already using UK ex-pats as bargaining chips themselves, since they acknowledged the fact that there is a need for negotiation.

davomcdave

CLAPTON wrote: »

why do you see a world with fewer people, less pollution, better housing, more resource per person, better transport as being a negative?

It's funny what happens when you rip a post out of context, it seems like the person replying to you has made some sort of outrageous or unreasonable reply whereas in reality it's just a response to a previous question.

You asked for some data on how Britain's population would change if not for immigration so I have provided you with some figures. Presumably you would like the numbers to be different as now you are making a completely unrelated point which doesn't really make a coherent argument.

Still this is the Internet where most people, instead of staying silent and being thought a fool, speak and remove any doubt.

Herzlos

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

But lets not pretend that the UK government didn't plead with the EU to guarantee bi-lateral rights of citizens and the EU shut down the discussion saying no negotiation until Article 50. So by implication the EU is already using UK ex-pats as bargaining chips themselves, since they acknowledged the fact that there is a need for negotiation.

I'm not. But lets not pretend that the ex-pats were under any EU based risk when the UK asked the EU to make a statement they knew they wouldn't and didn't need to make. The UK knows the EU will not discuss anything until A50 is triggered, and that expats will be protected by the EU until such time as the UK changes the deal.

Compare what the UK and EU has said about ex-pats. Why do you feel that the EU is in the wrong here?

CLAPTON

davomcdave wrote: »

It's funny what happens when you rip a post out of context, it seems like the person replying to you has made some sort of outrageous or unreasonable reply whereas in reality it's just a response to a previous question.

You asked for some data on how Britain's population would change if not for immigration so I have provided you with some figures. Presumably you would like the numbers to be different as now you are making a completely unrelated point which doesn't really make a coherent argument.

Still this is the Internet where most people, instead of staying silent and being thought a fool, speak and remove any doubt.

ok fair enough

My post was intended to be about the immediate result on migrant flows, given that people genuinely believed we had slit our throats or jumped off a cliff.

Originally Posted by CLAPTON View Post
for people that genuinely believe that the UK has jumped off a cliff or slit its throat and ruined the future of their children and grandchildren : why haven't they already left?
I agree that some are probably too old but the young : why aren't they flooding out of the country; why isn't the population falling by 500,000 per year of more or are they all waiting for article 50 to be invoked?

What about some predictions about the scale of population falls ?

your reply was about long term issues of births and deaths rather than panic reaction to brexit.

that said I believe we should, both in the UK and the world be working towards smaller populations are not planning for larger ones.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

I see this morning that Snapchat have chosen London, UK as home for its international operations.

Snap Inc said the UK's strong creative industries made the country "a great place to build a global business".
"We believe in the UK creative industries," Claire Valoti, general manager of Snap Group in the UK, said on Tuesday.
"The UK is where our advertising clients are, where more than 10 million daily Snapchatters are, and where we've already begun to hire talent."

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-snapchat-idUKKBN14U0S5

On top of this it appears that retail generally had a strong Christmas too:

The British Retail Consortium said a strong Christmas week boosted spending growth in December to a year-on-year rate of 1.7 percent, up from 1.3 percent in November.
Like-for-like sales - which exclude new store openings - saw annual growth of 1.0 percent, up from 0.6 percent in November.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-economy-retail-idUKKBN14U008

More and more it looks like the so-called cliff edge that some on here suggest the UK is jumping off by choosing Brexit is in fact only a stepping stone across a stream, with green fields of opportunity on the other side.

mrginge

Herzlos wrote: »

I know you hate the EU and foreigners, but you need to at least pretend to look at these things impartially.

If you're going to accuse people of hating foreigners you should probably not pick someone who is married to one.

TrickyTree83

Herzlos wrote: »

I'm not. But lets not pretend that the ex-pats were under any EU based risk when the UK asked the EU to make a statement they knew they wouldn't and didn't need to make. The UK knows the EU will not discuss anything until A50 is triggered, and that expats will be protected by the EU until such time as the UK changes the deal.

Compare what the UK and EU has said about ex-pats. Why do you feel that the EU is in the wrong here?

Has the EU said that once the UK leaves the EU that the rights of UK ex-pats will be honoured?

To my knowledge (and I would assume the UK governments), no they have not.

The UK has come out and publicly stated that it wants to discuss the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU so they need not worry, that they will be protected and their lives will not have to be bargaining chips. The EU declined to enter into discussions about either set of people. So their lives are now bargaining chips.

As much as you may hate the UK at the moment, the UK government did make the first move to make this happen. The only thing stopping it from happening is the EU.

CLAPTON

Herzlos wrote: »

Not at all, it's only the EU that isn't using the ex-pats as bargaining chips. EU has guaranteed their status as members of the EU right up until the UK changes the deal.

in EXACTLY that same way that the UK guarantees the status of EU people until the UK changes the deal.
NO MORE NO LESS.

The EU has literally nothing to assure about, because they aren't the ones producing the situation that will put them in jeopardy. They can't make further assurances beyond what they have, because they have no idea what crazy ideas May will suggest.

what stops each eu country saying that all UK people already there can stay: why do they need to know May's plans ?

What do you want both the EU and May to say?

simply that expat national present on 23 June 2016 will have the permanent right to stay and work.

Cap_Hero

FTSE 100 pushing all time highs every day at the moment, unemployment historically very low, can't say the same around most of Europe. Time to go imo. I believe that the EU experiment is coming to its natural end due to its unfortunate communist leanings. Best we are out when it crashes. After, the nation states will become resurgent once again across Europe.

I think it will be interesting to see the rise of a new 3 way alliance. USA/UK/RUSSIA, mark my words, the Germans will not be happy at the moment, hence Merkels Manoeuverings.

Socialism, for all its 'potential' benefits for mankind has and will never deliver the goods. Only the open markets of capitalist economies can do that.

This immigration sideshow is just noise now. I will say no more!