If we vote for Brexit what happens

Herzlos

CLAPTON wrote: »

Improving supply is indeed a good idea: we need a million or two immediately. This would require large increase in taxation for absolutley no gain to UK citizens.

There's no reason that government house building can't be zero sum or potentially even profit making. We're not talking about having them build houses to give them away; they can buy land, comission builders, and then either sell them (instant cash) or use them for social housing (saving cash over the long run).

Until the government start to think further than the next election, the problem is going to keep getting worse regardless of immigration or population, because there's also the BTL and investment factors at play; some people are buying up multiple houses to make a profit, so a level population still results in more houses being demanded. Providing enough supply of both private and social housing would stop that easily enough though.

The problem, and solution, lie with your MP, get them to fix it instead of railing against foreigners.

CLAPTON

Herzlos wrote: »

There's no reason that government house building can't be zero sum or potentially even profit making. We're not talking about having them build houses to give them away; they can buy land, comission builders, and then either sell them (instant cash) or use them for social housing (saving cash over the long run).

Until the government start to think further than the next election, the problem is going to keep getting worse regardless of immigration or population, because there's also the BTL and investment factors at play; some people are buying up multiple houses to make a profit, so a level population still results in more houses being demanded. Providing enough supply of both private and social housing would stop that easily enough though.

The problem, and solution, lie with your MP, get them to fix it instead of railing against foreigners.

for what purpose do you want an ever increasing population
what is your target 200,million , more and why?

There is zero prospect of building a few million houses, roads, infrastructre etc in the next 5 or 10 years, by which time, in your ideal world the population will have grown by about 5 or 10 million.

Herzlos

Please read what I actually said instead of dodging the subject.

I'm entirely neutral about the population; as long as it doesn't shrink I don't care. The reason I don't care? None of the problems you're blaming on immigration will actually be fixed by capping immigration. They might get fixed by making you MP work for a living, though. You're wasting effort trying to convince us that your not a racist, when you should be spending that effort on getting your MP to fix the problem.

I have a further prediction: Even in a hard Brexit, we won't see house prices come down, and you'll still be complaining about all the things you were complaining about before.

Conrad

I reckon we're short of people, lets get in millions more, celebrate the consumption, the congestion, the housing demand, the destruction of wildlife, the ever increasing demand for more food thus more chemical farming and food air miles, and lets all welcome the fact vulnerable developing nations are denuded of vital talents, yay it's all so epic man

Moby

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

It is quite straight forward really.

The migrant crisis was not dealt with properly by the EU as a whole - failure.

Germany and Sweden adopted an open migration policy which has now ceased - failure.

People are dying in Europe at the hands of mass murderers in allegiance to radical Islam, burkas are being banned in Holland, France and Germany and migrants are being told in Sweden their stay is temporary regardless of their status.

The whole thing was one gigantic virtue signalling exercise, I know the faux liberals are fond of virtue signalling, but this was a colossal mistake. They know it, they're finding out and now they're trying to close the gate after the horse has bolted.

By opening the borders in such a way they merely encouraged others to make the trip, causing more people smuggling, more sinking boats, more drowning men, women and children.

Idiots. I can't believe you're standing up for the whole gigantic mess.

It would be hilarious if the whole thing wasn't such a human tragedy.

The solution was to instantly send them back to where they arrived from, regardless of treaty. Remove the incentive to make the trip, a strong response on the smuggling and illegal migration and a strong response to aid on the ground near to ground zero.

As far as I'm aware the UK attempted to do both of those things by patrolling the Med and choosing asylum seekers near to ground zero, the most vulnerable first whilst also sending state aid.

And now the EU, in a state of panic, struck a deal with Turkey who just had a crackdown on freedom after a failed coup in which people who come through Turkey are then sent back there and we give them money for the privilege. The leadership is weak, terribly weak. Now Turkey is twisting the arm of the EU by weaponising the migrants!

Then there's the plight of the migrants themselves, in a foreign country living off the state in perpetuity because it's difficult to find a job when you don't speak the language. I think I read/heard somewhere that something like 4% of Germany's migrants in the last 12 months have a job. That's a lot of welfare claimants, for as long as they don't speak the language which could be their lifetime.

Which part of the plan went well Moby?

Honestly, I can't see it.

I agree it is a mess....but we had a hand in creating it because the foreign policy of the West over mant years has destabilised the Middle East. It is no coincidence that the Libyian coast is the main point of embarkation used by the smugglers. Nowhere in your post is there a logical, practical soution. 'Sending them back to where they come from' ....seriously!......... there were thousands of migrants! Italy couldn't return the suspect in the latest atrocity back to Tunisia because he had no passport and the Tunisian authorities refused to accept him!

I agree the EU is weak....that is because of nationalist sentiment in individual countries creating a NIMBY culture that sets states against each other. Greece and Italy are suffering most and we are turning a blind eye. Germany under Merkel took responsibility and did something! No solution was ever going to be perfect.

Conrad

Moby wrote: »

Italy couldn't return the suspect in the latest atrocity back to Tunisia because he had no passport and the Tunisian authorities refused to accept him!

I think a desert processing camp is long over-due. Take as long as you want to 'remember' where you left your passport.

Moby

CLAPTON wrote: »

what matters is the welfare of the people
this is difficult to measure

you may feel that, in london and the SE , people are better off that 25 years ago: my view in the housing situation is so bad that this is NOT so.

It may be that in 20 -30-40 years there may or may not be a demographic issue : plenty of time to solve that rather than sacrifice the current young generation to a life of renting and flat sharing and not being able to afford a family sized home.

they only live once

I moved to London from Wales 26 years ago and things are generally better in London now than they were when I first arrived. Transport, services are better and Brixton, Tottenham, Edmonton, Wood Green, Islington, Camberwell, (areas I've worked in) are clean now and buzzing. The streets are generally safer as well. I agree finding housing is harder but as I said to my neighbour in relation to their offspring....young people are more flexible and adaptable....there's plenty of cheap housing up North and in Wales. In any event the fact that working class people are being excluded from inner city boroughs is a fault of this awful Govmt's housing policy....which leaves the low income renters at the mercy of Rachman landlords and has changed the housing benefit rules to make renting harder for the young.

CLAPTON

Moby wrote: »

I agree it is a mess....but we had a hand in creating it because the foreign policy of the West over mant years has destabilised the Middle East. It is no coincidence that the Libyian coast is the main point of embarkation used by the smugglers.

does that mean you support strong vicious dicatatorships like most of the middle east previously, USSR, China etc.
or does it mean you support change as long the 'west' has nothing to do with it

Nowhere in your post is there a logical, practical soution. 'Sending them back to where they come from' ....seriously!......... there were thousands of migrants! Italy couldn't return the suspect in the latest atrocity back to Tunisia because he had no passport and the Tunisian authorities refused to accept him!

true but no-one seems to have a 'solution'

I agree the EU is weak....that is because of nationalist sentiment in individual countries creating a NIMBY culture that sets states against each other. Greece and Italy are suffering most and we are turning a blind eye. Germany under Merkel took responsibility and did something! No solution was ever going to be perfect.

Merkels 'let them come' created a huge problem and directly led to the death of thousands

The_Last_Username

Who mentioned dictatorships?

Well - and yes I KNOW it's The Express but they're only doing the reporting of Putin's annual conference - this made me smile!

Putin says the EU is MORE of a dictatorship than the SOVIET UNION as he slams Brussels

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/746831/Vladimir-Putin-conference-EU-soviet-union-brussels-European-Union-supreme-council

gfplux

Britain has been preparing to leave the EU for six months today.
There has been a huge amount of good economic news in those six months.
I find the time has flown by.