If we vote for Brexit what happens

setmefree2

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Keeping the arrangements the same to avoid turbulence is not the same as being completely unable to negotiate the terms deal by deal as time, resource and priority dictates.

You may be right in that deals as a larger bloc could be better, they could also be worse as we have to compromise more to get agreement between the EU 28 and the 3rd party, the deals may also never happen at all. With vested interests in other EU states lobbying and voting down a deal that's good for us because it's not good for them.

Assuming you're correct about the lesser deal as a smaller bloc, if there's a choice between a near certainty of getting a slightly lesser deal, or an equal chance of no deal, an equally lesser deal, or a better deal. I'll take the deal that we're more likely to actually get, that we can negotiate in our own interests for me, you and everyone else who lives in this great country.

It would appear to me in a Post Trump - Post Brexit world big bloc deals are dead.

Bilateral trade deals between countries with similar living standards are where it's at.

setmefree2

Moby wrote: »

The general consensus among those that know these things is that you get a better deal when part of a bigger block. No need for it to be any more complicated than that.....that is why bigger trading blocks developed....we are striking out alone in an uncertain, volatile world and lets be frank people have voted for that because of xenophobia and immigration. Do you seriously think the brexiteers of Sunderland et al give a flying ** about WTO rules! Posts about how wonderful it is that MacDonalds, (loathsome company they are by the way), are choosing to move here are a sign of desperate hope over reality I'm afraid!

I'm afraid you are out of date.

Trump to withdraw from Trans-Pacific Partnership on first day in office

Trump is right: Nafta is a disaster.

Doubts rise over TTIP as France threatens to block EU-US deal

I'm seriously starting to question your "leftie" credentials tbh. Nobody on the left should be advocating big bloc deals like TTIP and TPP. Nobody.

setmefree2

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

How do you know why the people of Sunderland voted the way they did?

Maybe they were informed enough to want a Free Port : which they can't have in the EU.

Free Ports would fill the sails of the post-Brexit economy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/14/free-ports-would-fill-the-sails-of-the-post-brexit-economy/

mrginge

Herzlos wrote: »

When companies move into the UK to avoid tax, it's not a sign of a growing economy. I maybe shouldn't have called it bad.

And of course you will now claim that every company that comes to this country is only doing so for tax purposes, despite their being no evidence or rationale for that accusation.

As long as it fits your agenda though it's fine.

Moby

Tromking wrote: »

Throughout history many self proclaimed intellectual elites have had their world view checked by the great unwashed. No doubt there were many like you in 1945 who cried 'look what the thicko's have done' when the irks rejected the status quo of Churchill and instead voted in the finest government our nation has ever seen.
They'll be building statues to the Brexiteers in the future.

You are not comparing like with like. Troops returning from WW2 wanted a better life for themselves and their families....a life which gave them housing, an NHS, proper pensions, (a better world) a worthy aspiration!
In contrast brexiteers voted for narrow more selfish reasons, the main focus of which was immigration. They are of course sadly deluded because the very people who voted brexit are the ones who will lose the most when the economy tanks and when there is insufficient qualified staff to support the NHS and Care services, (already in crisis).

TrickyTree83

setmefree2 wrote: »

It would appear to me in a Post Trump - Post Brexit world big bloc deals are dead.

Bilateral trade deals between countries with similar living standards are were it's at.

I'm not entirely sure I would subscribe to that.

The EU would be better if it were purely a trading bloc. Having common rules for items sold within the bloc but there should be no need to impose the rules on everything sold everywhere to everyone. There should be no need to impose any rules short of those around trade between the parties involved, the environment, social problems, immigration, defence should not be under the purview of a trading bloc. The bloc should also not impose the banning of bi-lateral agreements with others. It should not try to impose a common currency.

When our elders voted to join the common market, I think that's what they believed they were going to get. Subsequent treaties since has perverted that into something more resembling the United States of America than BRICS.

mrginge

setmefree2 wrote: »

I'm afraid you are out of date.

I'm seriously starting to question your leftie credentials tbh. Nobody on the left should be advocating deals like TTIP and TPP. Nobody.

Moby was a fully paid up blairite a few months ago.

Now though he's turned to the dark side and become a true believer of corbynomics.

Hence his total lack of economic literacy.

TrickyTree83

Moby wrote: »

You are not comparing like with like. Troops returning from WW2 wanted a better life for themselves and their families....a life which gave them housing, an NHS, proper pensions, (a better world) a worthy aspiration!
In contrast brexiteers voted for narrow more selfish reasons, the main focus of which was immigration. They are of course sadly deluded because the very people who voted brexit are the ones who will lose the most when the economy tanks and when there is insufficient qualified staff to support the NHS and Care services, (already in crisis).

Why?

Is immigration going to stop entirely? Will we no longer be able to offer jobs to people outside of the country where there is a skills shortage just because we leave the EU?

This is the same claptrap the "liberal" press push to denigrate those who voted to leave. That they want to kick people out, that they want to close the borders, it's simply not true is it. Honestly, it's very simple, it's not true. Wanting to have control over it so we don't fill up Tesco warehouses with unskilled EU citizens when what we actually need are those with skills we don't have in this country is a completely reasonable position to take if you have reason to do so.

From a selfish point of view, the freedom of movement is a benefit to me since I can travel around the EU very easily. I wouldn't mind if it continued because it doesn't affect me, I don't have to compete because of it and my wages are not depressed because of it, I have no negative factors because of the freedom of movement.

But that is NOT to say that there are no people that it does affect and that those people want it to stop so they have less competition. If that is the way they feel, who am I or you to tell them they are wrong? To say they are being xenophobic or racist? We are not them and we do not walk in their shoes, so writing off their opinion because we have not had the same experiences is wrong, as I keep trying to explain.

Moby

setmefree2 wrote: »

It would appear to me in a Post Trump - Post Brexit world big bloc deals are dead.

Bilateral trade deals between countries with similar living standards are were it's at.

Naaah....you are just over exuberantly riding the protesting populist wave against the elites while forgetting to consider the people leading you by the nose are elitists themselves. We are in reactionary times granted.....but that will end; multi culturalism, globalisation and federalisation etc will return. Technology, cheaper travel etc will see to that.....building protectionist walls against it will fail. The only answer is education, an open mind and trans border co-operation. Young people already know this....problem is not enough of them vote to neutralise the white, grey, dry old sticks defending their interests.

setmefree2

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

How do you know why the people of Sunderland voted the way they did?

From today's FT. Apparently the good people of Sunderland are not as thick as Moby believes.

Sunderland holds firm to belief in Brexit opportunities

City’s manufacturers tell MPs UK can make and sell more outside the bloc

Speaking in the city that racked up the first big victory for the Leave campaign on referendum night, John Elliott, a lifelong manufacturer, sees opportunity in Brexit.
The secret of successful exports was simple, Mr Elliott told the cross-party Commons committee on exiting the EU, which convened in Sunderland on Thursday for its first public evidence hearing outside Westminster. “You make a product people want to buy.”
This, he added, was the big issue — not trade deals or currency — and it was why the UK had the chance to make and sell more products, at home and abroad, once it had left the bloc.

https://www.ft.com/content/095f32d0-bd6c-11e6-8b45-b8b81dd5d080