Architect - taken 12 months to get extension agreed

teneighty

lucylou32 wrote: »

His first invoice was for £950 plus VAT he provided this in January. We paid the invoice in April, when the 2nd drawing arrived, we did point out it still didn't match our requirements, but that we wanted no further delays.

Further to our meeting, please find attached my fee proposal for the following services:

· Undertake a measured survey Could be related to the omitted works in the brief such as the drive and house development but if it wasn't undertaken then no payment due for that part of the project, only the extension(s) part

· Develop driveway layout (not done) If omitted and no work carried out then no payment due

· Undertake a site survey and take levels through site see item 1 above

· Undertake a drain inspection determine drain position (excluding CCTV) Did he complete the drain inspection? Sometimes you cannot tell the route of the drain if manhole covers are not available and sometimes they just don't go in a straight line as they should, but if that is the case he should have flagged it up for further investigation. If as you say he knew the drain ran in the vicinity of one of the extensions but failed to notify you of the implications then it is professional negligence and good grounds for a complaint.

· Develop a design for a two storey extension Develop the design to what extent? Feasibility, Concept, Preliminary, Planning, Detailed??? This clause is meaningless without further clarification

· Develop an indicative design for a new 2nd house and issue to Tonbridge & Malling Council (to review against council policy) (not done) If omitted and no work done then no payment due

My fee allows for submitting the application for a two storey side and single storey rear extension under a full plans submission. "Full Plans Submission" is a clear reference to a Building Regulations Application so either it is a simple typing error and he meant a Householder Planning Application (A Full Planning Application would not apply to a domestic extension) or he is trying to pull a fast one and charge twice for the same work.

When we appointed Owen on 14th February, we told him at the same time, the 2nd house design was no longer required, because we'd discovered we were pregnant and therefore, we'd stick with the extension. Therefore, there's no way he would have spent even a second on it.

I will have another stab at it, I have added some notes above.

I am not overly familiar with the workings of the CIOB, it is primarily an organisation dealing with construction management and I have never come across a member working in small domestic architectural design projects. Friends and associates in the CIOB were all contracts managers and site agents on large commercial building projects although I believe that they are trying to widen their membership as I have attended some of their local technical seminars. I had a quick look at their website to check up on their complaints procedure and it is very disappointing, not a patch on more traditional institutions who are much more geared up for regulating their members who are engaged directly by private clients. The CIOB seems to suggest complaints are just handled internally by the individual member with no scope to go to an independent ombudsman or escalate to the institution. It might be worth speaking to someone at the CIOB to get some clarification on this as it seems rather poor and not what you would expect from a professional institution with a royal charter.

As I said previously you will need to present your complaint in a more coherent and comprehensive manner as what you have posted so far is contradictory and confusing. Hence why myself and other posters have been rather reticent in our usual support.

Finally, don't worry about the "thanks" thing. Some long term
posters get rather worked up about it and seem to treat their thanks count as some kind of status symbol.

lucylou32

teneighty wrote: »

I will have another stab at it, I have added some notes above.

I am not overly familiar with the workings of the CIOB, it is primarily an organisation dealing with construction management and I have never come across a member working in small domestic architectural design projects. when I showed the builder the initial plans, that were put forward for planning approval, he did make a couple of comments, about elevation and the colour of.. Something, metal something.. Anyway, he said he'd only ever seen these things on building sites, he'd never seen an architect design them into a home extensionFriends and associates in the CIOB were all contracts managers and site agents on large commercial building projects although I believe that they are trying to widen their membership as I have attended some of their local technical seminars. I had a quick look at their website to check up on their complaints procedure and it is very disappointing, not a patch on more traditional institutions who are much more geared up for regulating their members who are engaged directly by private clients. The CIOB seems to suggest complaints are just handled internally by the individual member with no scope to go to an independent ombudsman or escalate to the institution. It might be worth speaking to someone at the CIOB to get some clarification on this as it seems rather poor and not what you would expect from a professional institution with a royal charter.

As I said previously you will need to present your complaint in a more coherent and comprehensive manner as what you have posted so far is contradictory and confusing. Hence why myself and other posters have been rather reticent in our usual support.

Finally, don't worry about the "thanks" thing. Some long term
posters get rather worked up about it and seem to treat their thanks count as some kind of status symbol.

Thank you I too have commented above and am the first to admit, I have no clue, I'm just repeating what I believe to be accurate, any contradictory statements I've made, are simply a demonstration of my lack of understanding unfortunately. A lot of my frustration is also based on lack of understanding, around who's responsible for what. I hate the blame game (I'd much rather be blaming the right person, even if that's me for not taking a course in architect to learn what I should be looking for/expecting) and not having a list which shows who's responsible for which aspects is hard for me, when I don't hear from the designer for weeks at a time and have to chase him for an update, I assume he's doing nothing and the delay is a result of his lack of work. Unless he tells me otherwise, I don't know what else I'm suppose to think.

lucylou32

@teneighty - continued from above

originally Posted by lucylou32 View Post
His first invoice was for £950 plus VAT he provided this in January. We paid the invoice in April, when the 2nd drawing arrived, we did point out it still didn't match our requirements, but that we wanted no further delays.

Further to our meeting, please find attached my fee proposal for the following services:

· Undertake a measured survey Could be related to the omitted works in the brief such as the drive and house development but if it wasn't undertaken then no payment due for that part of the project, only the extension(s) parti don't know if this was undertaken, but we did pay for it

· Develop driveway layout (not done) If omitted and no work carried out then no payment due we paid, he refused to refund the payment

· Undertake a site survey and take levels through site see item 1 above

· Undertake a drain inspection determine drain position (excluding CCTV) Did he complete the drain inspection? Sometimes you cannot tell the route of the drain if manhole covers are not available and sometimes they just don't go in a straight line as they should, but if that is the case he should have flagged it up for further investigation. If as you say he knew the drain ran in the vicinity of one of the extensions but failed to notify you of the implications then it is professional negligence and good grounds for a complaint.we have 3 drains/manholes, he lifted the lid and examined them all. Nothing was flagged as being a potential problem

· Develop a design for a two storey extension Develop the design to what extent? Feasibility, Concept, Preliminary, Planning, Detailed??? This clause is meaningless without further clarification i don't know what the definition of these words are. He created a drawing which was submitted to the planning office for approval

· Develop an indicative design for a new 2nd house and issue to Tonbridge & Malling Council (to review against council policy) (not done) If omitted and no work done then no payment due we paid, and asked for a refund, he refused

My fee allows for submitting the application for a two storey side and single storey rear extension under a full plans submission. "Full Plans Submission" is a clear reference to a Building Regulations Application so either it is a simple typing error and he meant a Householder Planning Application (A Full Planning Application would not apply to a domestic extension) or he is trying to pull a fast one and charge twice for the same work. on the 1 hand, we did make it clear, we wanted him to carry out all the necessary work required, in order for our builder to commence work. That our builder doesn't do anything except build, so I would have expected (what I now know to be building regulations) to have been included. However, we did receive a 2nd bill in August, specifically referring to submission of building regulations

When we appointed Owen on 14th February, we told him at the same time, the 2nd house design was no longer required, because we'd discovered we were pregnant and therefore, we'd stick with the extension. Therefore, there's no way he would have spent even a second on it.

lucylou32

Doozergirl wrote: »

I'm out. We're not getting anywhere, just talking.

I wonder if that is the problem.

I'm sorry if my comments on your post came across as rude, I didn't mean to be. I just feel like I'm being asked the same questions in different ways, to try and catch me out and to be honest... I only know what I know and that could easily be wrong. But I do agree with what misterbaxter is saying, he appreciates that I have no knowledge of the industry and my designer should have explained in laymans terms, how the process works, who does what and when and then written minutes that I could refer to at a later date, if I needed to.

System

lucylou32 wrote: »

I'm sorry if my comments on your post came across as rude, I didn't mean to be. I just feel like I'm being asked the same questions in different ways, to try and catch me out and to be honest... I only know what I know and that could easily be wrong. But I do agree with what misterbaxter is saying, he appreciates that I have no knowledge of the industry and my designer should have explained in laymans terms, how the process works, who does what and when and then written minutes that I could refer to at a later date, if I needed to.

you are being asked the same questions in different ways because you are aren't answering the questions fully so it's incredibly difficult to establish what's happening when there are only small bits of information coming out at a time - it's not to trip you up.

So none of the people you asked to quote for the job laid out the process or timescales, or even the scope of their work? I'm not sure how you managed to compare them without knowing what they were doing for their money... Presumably you also talked in person with these people, again the didn't try to help you understand the process and work flow? Seems bizarre to have got 5 incompetent people here...

The other thing that is still.completely 100% mental is this invoicing thing.
He invoiced you before he had been appointed? I'll ask again, Can you please clarify the payment terms on this invoice?
You changed the scope of the works at the time of the appointment but you didn't think to change the "outstanding" invoice for work that hadn't been carried out??
Then to top it all off, you paid for work you know you had not instructed and had not been carried out because of an invoice submitted prior to you instructing any work?!??

The above situation didn't arise because of your lack of understanding of the role of the architect its a severe lack of common sense I'm afraid - you didn't ask for it, it wasn't done and yet you paid for it?! Please find attached my invoice for the design of your new house, which I've not been asked to do and have no intention of doing...

teneighty

lucylou32 wrote: »

@teneighty - continued from above

originally Posted by lucylou32 View Post
His first invoice was for £950 plus VAT he provided this in January. We paid the invoice in April, when the 2nd drawing arrived, we did point out it still didn't match our requirements, but that we wanted no further delays.

Further to our meeting, please find attached my fee proposal for the following services:

· Undertake a measured survey Could be related to the omitted works in the brief such as the drive and house development but if it wasn't undertaken then no payment due for that part of the project, only the extension(s) parti don't know if this was undertaken, but we did pay for it So you withold a reasonable amount from his second invoice to cover work not done

· Develop driveway layout (not done) If omitted and no work carried out then no payment due we paid, he refused to refund the payment As above

· Undertake a site survey and take levels through site see item 1 above As above

· Undertake a drain inspection determine drain position (excluding CCTV) Did he complete the drain inspection? Sometimes you cannot tell the route of the drain if manhole covers are not available and sometimes they just don't go in a straight line as they should, but if that is the case he should have flagged it up for further investigation. If as you say he knew the drain ran in the vicinity of one of the extensions but failed to notify you of the implications then it is professional negligence and good grounds for a complaint.we have 3 drains/manholes, he lifted the lid and examined them all. Nothing was flagged as being a potential problem Time to get your builder to trace the drains properly and if it was clear that the designer should have known from his site investigation they ran close to one of the extensions you have got him bang to rights. Official complaint in the post and claim for your financial losses/delays as a result of his negligence.

· Develop a design for a two storey extension Develop the design to what extent? Feasibility, Concept, Preliminary, Planning, Detailed??? This clause is meaningless without further clarification i don't know what the definition of these words are. He created a drawing which was submitted to the planning office for approval Doesn't matter, we are trying to establish what was originally agreed and intended in his instruction, not what he subsequently provided.

· Develop an indicative design for a new 2nd house and issue to Tonbridge & Malling Council (to review against council policy) (not done) If omitted and no work done then no payment due we paid, and asked for a refund, he refused As 1 above

My fee allows for submitting the application for a two storey side and single storey rear extension under a full plans submission. "Full Plans Submission" is a clear reference to a Building Regulations Application so either it is a simple typing error and he meant a Householder Planning Application (A Full Planning Application would not apply to a domestic extension) or he is trying to pull a fast one and charge twice for the same work. on the 1 hand, we did make it clear, we wanted him to carry out all the necessary work required, in order for our builder to commence work. That our builder doesn't do anything except build, so I would have expected (what I now know to be building regulations) to have been included. However, we did receive a 2nd bill in August, specifically referring to submission of building regulations I would withold payment on his second invoice on the grounds that his original fee proposal and first invoice clearly include a "Full Plans Submission" this can only be a reference to Building Regulations Full Plans Application so you have already paid for it once. You might want to stall on this for a while though until you have received the Building Regs approval notice. I cannot remember the figures and cannot be bothered to scroll back through all the posts but from limited memory he was asking for quite a large sum just for the Building Regs. I would go back and compare these figures with the other fee quotes you received. I would hope some of the other quotes are more professional and spell out exactly what they were providing, £x for Planning, £y for Building Regs etc.

When we appointed Owen on 14th February, we told him at the same time, the 2nd house design was no longer required, because we'd discovered we were pregnant and therefore, we'd stick with the extension. Therefore, there's no way he would have spent even a second on it. Just being pedantic but have you got written proof/email you omitted this from the brief? He could argue you didn't tell him and he has done some or all of the design work.

Hopefully this guy is not the complete idiot he is being portrayed as and it is just a case of misunderstandings and poor communication. If so he needs to step up and sort this out now, if he continues to be evasive and unhelpful then you need to let him have it with both barrels.

lucylou32

Furts wrote: »

I am a fellow professional and would tend to agree with you - I differ on minor points with your stance.

The crux is OP's post 19. The designer had a contract to be paid in advance because OP refers to an invoice in January. Yet this does not tally with the designer receiving an instruction in February. This will remain a grey area. Did OP know what she was doing or was she deemed a bad credit risk?

Regardless the designer was paid in April when the brief had been completed. up".

Hey Furts

I have an update, and since you're obviously on the side of the Designer, I wanted to make sure I obtained your feedback too, as if I am truly being a 'customer from hell' I know I can trust you to give me your honest opinion.

Firstly, going back to one of your previous comments about me being a bad payer. I have double checked and can now confirmed, the 'invoice' I received in January, wasn't actually marked up as an invoice, we have now come to the conclusion it was just a quote. An actual official invoice was never received. We paid the quoted price in April, when we felt the job had been done ... Yep. I'll admit that was stupid..

I'm going to reinvite some of the other very helpful posters back in to see if they're also willing to comment on my updates and then I'll post a copy of the most recent conversations I've had with my designer.

Thank you in advance

lucylou32

Doozergirl wrote: »

If it were me, I'd write, disengaging him.

Refer to your previous emails and tell him you have run out of patience.

Tell him you will not be paying for services that should take an architect a matter of weeks to produce correctly first time, not months to produce with errors and omissions.

He has also already been paid for services not rendered and so you feel that he still owes you for that, or that agreement should least have been made for the payment on account to go towards something else.

And also tell him that you were absolutely of the impression that he was a qualified architect and feel utterly misled.

Then engage someone to deal
With things in a timely manner leave it with him.

If you end up in small claims with him, I think you should counter claim for the other work not received. Although stressful, I'd feel quite comfortable that this person has failed you.

Anyone of worth would have this dealt with and the walls up by now! I wouldn't have the gall to go to small claims if I were him.

Hey Doozergirl

It's taken us a while, it feels like a massive decision, to find someone else and start again from scratch but below you'll find our most recent correspondence with him and.. We're 99% sure we're going with your recommendation, to find someone else and start procedings to try and get some of our money back from him. If you did have any further comments to assist us, please feel free to share them you've been a great help so far.

lucylou32

MisterBaxter wrote: »

Before you give up completely ask your professional to provide a cost estimate for the options that he is suggesting are available. Also ask the question as to how much of what he has already done is usable in a new scheme. Then ask yourself if the new scheme is what you want or do you want to rethink the whole project. Starting over may or may not be the most desirable outcome for you but similarly it could be the opportunity to get closer to what you originally had hoped for.

If the scheme is un-salvageable then now is the time to cut the current professional loose and get someone else in as the trust is lost and it is unlikely to have much in the way of a cost implication. However if there is room to salvage the scheme you will have to weigh up the pros and cons of trying to work through it with the current person as it may be the cheaper option overall. That of course assumes he wants to carry on working for you; he may also see this as a chance to walk away without consequence.

I would be very reluctant to start any part of the scheme until you have fully appraised all of the options available to you as doing so could be limiting to any other options that may present themselves.

This time make it very clear that you want honest realistic solutions and costs and be prepared to hear things that you don't really want to hear.

We did as you suggested. Pls see below for copies of my emails and his responses. Sorry to drag you back into this, but we'd love a final opinion before we start Looking elsewhere.
Thank you

lucylou32

teneighty wrote: »

Time to get your builder to trace the drains properly and if it was clear that the designer should have known from his site investigation they ran close to one of the extensions you have got him bang to rights. Official complaint in the post and claim for your financial losses/delays as a result of his negligence.

Hopefully this guy is not the complete idiot he is being portrayed as and it is just a case of misunderstandings and poor communication. If so he needs to step up and sort this out now, if he continues to be evasive and unhelpful then you need to let him have it with both barrels.

Didn't need to get the builder involved, my partner lifted the drain and said its clear, the waste pipe runs underneath the proposed extension. I'm assuming that if he can see that, the designer should have been able to as well.