Architect - taken 12 months to get extension agreed

lucylou32

I need some guidance on what I can do, if anything..

In October 2014 myself and my partner purchased a house, before putting our offer in, we asked a builder friend to quote on a 2 story side extension, he did, it was a good price, so we bought the property.

In January 2015 we interviewed 5 architects and picked/employed one in February. We informed him I was pregnant with baby due October. We asked if we could get planning permission and commence with build by May, allowing our builder time to complete by September. He confirmed that would be possible.

Issues:
1) His original invoice quoted for 3 designs: a 2 story side extension, a new driveway and a separate detached house (the plot of land was just big enough) we told him what we wanted on the side of the house, 2 weeks later we got his design, which looked 50% similar to our request, so we asked him to try again. 2 weeks later another design arrived, 75% similar to our request. We wanted to get a move on, so told him we accept it, even though it didn't match our request - we decided against the separate house and forgot to request he complete the driveway design, so we ask him for a refund for the work/designs he had not done (separate house and driveway designs) he said no refund, because the designs would/could be done, the fact that we no longer wanted them done didn't matter.
2) Feb to Sept I asked each and every month, for a guide as to how long each stage would take and who was responsible for each stage. I.e design for planning permission, him. Time to hear back, 4 weeks. He never provided this.
3) planning permission received in July. We passed to builder who requested building regulations. We went back to architect who recommended a private company, charging twice the council cost. We decided to go with the council. Council advised in Sept, building plans were incomplete, about a dozen bits of info missing. We asked architect to provide missing info
4) August, architect tells us we need permission from southern water to build over a drain. Sept, we hear back from southern water, building plans were incomplete and missing lots of data. We asked architect to provide missin data
5) architect submitted an invoice in September, asking for payment for building regulation design. We declined and said 'until the design has been deemed acceptable by council and southern water, we aren't paying.

Anyway, it's now December and we're still waiting for approval to start work.

What, if anything can I do to complain, baring in mind he owns his own company, with no other employees to complain to. And with such horrendous service, do I have to pay the final invoice at all? (Everything has been documented in emails)

Thank you in advance
Lucy

P.s baby is now here with physical disabilities, we have no room for a cot, for her exercise equipment nor even for a Xmas tree. This guy has ruined her first Xmas and depressed us significantly

siliconbits

I, for once, am lost for words and can only offer a few words of comfort. I might consider a small claims tribunal if they still exist but that would only add more stress. I shall await what other MSE members come up with.

MX5huggy

Is this a true Architect? A member of the RIBA and registered with the ARB? If not any other professional body?

lucylou32

According to his website, it says Chartered Building Consultancy and CIOB. I Found him via a website localsurveyersdirect.co.uk

MisterBaxter

If he is CIOB then he most likely hasn't been trained as an Architect but is instead someone who has been involved in the construction industry for a while. I would expect an Architect to be a member of the RIBA. That in itself isn't an issue, you don't really need an Architect and there are a number of building professionals managing these sorts of projects on a regular basis.

A lot is going to depend on exactly what services you agreed he would provide, what services the builder would provide and what element of the project you would undertake.

If I were running the project I would expect to provide designs that met your requirements so far as possible; remembering that they would have to be planning compliant. I would deal with Planning and Building Regulation approvals along with the build over notices and the likes but I would have agreed all of these up front as part of a signed agreement of services. A signed agreement protects them as much as it does you.

They should have been able to give you a fairly accurate timetable; the only unknown is how long the Planners will take to approve but that should have also been explained to you.

If you did agree what they were supposed to do and they haven't then I suggest that you withhold payment on grounds that they haven't fulfilled their obligations. You could complain to the CIOB about their conduct. It will be down to them to try and take you to Court but if plans aren't yet approved they may not get very far with that.

If you have a decent builder on board it may be worth asking them if they can assist you in getting things moving, many builders manage Design & Build projects so are quite good at getting projects through the formal approvals.

lush_walrus

lucylou32 wrote: »

I need some guidance on what I can do, if anything..

In October 2014 myself and my partner purchased a house, before putting our offer in, we asked a builder friend to quote on a 2 story side extension, he did, it was a good price, so we bought the property.

In January 2015 we interviewed 5 architects and picked/employed one in February. We informed him I was pregnant with baby due October. We asked if we could get planning permission and commence with build by May, allowing our builder time to complete by September. He confirmed that would be possible.

Issues:
1) His original invoice quoted for 3 designs: a 2 story side extension, a new driveway and a separate detached house (the plot of land was just big enough) we told him what we wanted on the side of the house, 2 weeks later we got his design, which looked 50% similar to our request, so we asked him to try again. 2 weeks later another design arrived, 75% similar to our request. We wanted to get a move on, so told him we accept it, even though it didn't match our request - we decided against the separate house and forgot to request he complete the driveway design, so we ask him for a refund for the work/designs he had not done (separate house and driveway designs) he said no refund, because the designs would/could be done, the fact that we no longer wanted them done didn't matter.
2) Feb to Sept I asked each and every month, for a guide as to how long each stage would take and who was responsible for each stage. I.e design for planning permission, him. Time to hear back, 4 weeks. He never provided this.
3) planning permission received in July. We passed to builder who requested building regulations. We went back to architect who recommended a private company, charging twice the council cost. We decided to go with the council. Council advised in Sept, building plans were incomplete, about a dozen bits of info missing. We asked architect to provide missing info
4) August, architect tells us we need permission from southern water to build over a drain. Sept, we hear back from southern water, building plans were incomplete and missing lots of data. We asked architect to provide missin data
5) architect submitted an invoice in September, asking for payment for building regulation design. We declined and said 'until the design has been deemed acceptable by council and southern water, we aren't paying.

Anyway, it's now December and we're still waiting for approval to start work.

What, if anything can I do to complain, baring in mind he owns his own company, with no other employees to complain to. And with such horrendous service, do I have to pay the final invoice at all? (Everything has been documented in emails)

Thank you in advance
Lucy

P.s baby is now here with physical disabilities, we have no room for a cot, for her exercise equipment nor even for a Xmas tree. This guy has ruined her first Xmas and depressed us significantly

Ok a couple of things, did this person quote to provide services beyond planning? From what you have said it doesn't appear so. It appears they quoted to provide options then submit to planning.

What did you then submit to building control? If it were the planning drawings, then yes it will be very incomplete. What building control require is information of what is actually going to be built. Not massing and window locations as planning requires but how much insulation, the specifications of Windows, how the roof will be built, how it will drain and to what. It's a very differerent process to planning.

In addition before building you will have various planning conditions that need to be submitted, if you look on your permission letter it will list them.

Looking at your later statement, the person / company you have employed are not architects - so no surprise with no architectural training they could not even understand your brief. The word Architect and the usage of it by a person to describe their services is protected by ARB. Only those who have passed all of their exams (RIBA approved) can call themselves such. An architect does not have to belong to RIBA, however they do have to belong to ARB and if you want to check if someone is an architect go on Arbs website they have a list that is up to date.

Ok so my advice is don't pay for what you have not received from these people, if their quote was to provide designs for all and they haven't you do not need to pay.

Then get yourself an architect, the service you require is planning conditions to be cleared and to submit Full Plans. Or get yourself a builder who is happy to deal with building control under notice. Architects normally work on a fixed fee for specific works or a percentage of the building works. Do not try to cut corners you may think you can get cheaper with someone like you have employed but ultimately you get what you pay for.

If you do employ an architect and you have any issues they are

lush_walrus

lucylou32 wrote: »

According to his website, it says Chartered Building Consultancy and CIOB. I Found him via a website localsurveyersdirect.co.uk

If you look on a surveyors website you will not find an architect. Go onto RIBAs website and or ARB website and you will find architects your u can search via location.

lucylou32

lush_walrus wrote: »

If you look on a surveyors website you will not find an architect. Go onto RIBAs website and or ARB website and you will find architects your u can search via location.

The website asks what kind of professional you're looking for, architect is an option. This guy sold himself to us, as an architect and claims:
a Multi-Discipline Construction Consultancy providing Architectural Design, Building Surveying, and Quantity Surveying, Project Management, Employers Agent and Health & Safety Services.

He told us, he could complete all aspects the builder could not

lucylou32

lush_walrus wrote: »

Ok a couple of things, did this person quote to provide services beyond planning? From what you have said it doesn't appear so. It appears they quoted to provide options then submit to planning. CORRECT

What did you then submit to building control? If it were the planning drawings, then yes it will be very incomplete. What building control require is information of what is actually going to be built. Not massing and window locations as planning requires but how much insulation, the specifications of Windows, how the roof will be built, how it will drain and to what. It's a very differerent process to planning. WE FOUND THIS OUT RETROSPECTIVELY

Looking at your later statement, the person / company you have employed are not architects - so no surprise with no architectural training they could not even understand your brief. The word Architect and the usage of it by a person to describe their services is protected by ARB. Only those who have passed all of their exams (RIBA approved) can call themselves such. An architect does not have to belong to RIBA, however they do have to belong to ARB and if you want to check if someone is an architect go on Arbs website they have a list that is up to date. THEY SAY THEYRE AN ARCHITECT, BUT I CANT AEE THEM ON THE ARB SEARCH

Ok so my advice is don't pay for what you have not received from these people, if their quote was to provide designs for all and they haven't you do not need to pay. AND WHEN ITS FINALLY RECEIVED, 13 months later?

Then get yourself an architect, the service you require is planning conditions to be cleared and to submit Full Plans. THIS IS WHAT HES NOW DONE

Pls see a few comments above, to your questions

MisterBaxter

lucylou32 - your consultant says that they provide architectural services along with other construction related services. many of the people out there that do the type of work you are having done are multidisciplinary (myself included) and will deal with this type of building project. They don't really need to be a fully qualified Architect so I wouldn't get too hung up on that element. They are still selling you a service as a professional and you should have every expectation that they will fulfil their duties diligently for the project you are appointing them to. Unfortunately it sounds like you got one of the rogues.

I would argue that even if they do complete everything they have priced for in their quote there is still room to withhold payment as they didn't perform the tasks that they were supposed to in a timely and effective manner; just churning out the job eventually isn't the same as providing the service diligently; timeliness is part of this.

Based on your response above it does appear that some of the issues are as a result of how you appointed the consultant and that you only wanted them to take you up to planning stage (if I've read your response correct). I would say that the consultant should have explained the whole process to you so that you knew exactly what the various stages were and from there you could decide what services you wanted to buy. If the consultant did explain all of this then you have to take some responsibility as you only bought services up to planning; if they didn't explain it properly then they have again failed to act diligently.

As a general rule I would expect a professional to list all services they are able to provide from Inception to Completion and then agree with you which of those you wanted them to provide. A good consultant will treat every prospective client as a layperson and will explain everything that they should know so that the client is making informed decisions. Yours doesn't appear to have done this but you can't really wind back the clock. I take it you have explained your disatisfaction with the services you have received; if so what was the response. You can still complain to the CIOB but the most they will do is sanction the person in question which doesn't really help you that much.

lucylou32

MisterBaxter wrote: »

lucylou32 - your consultant says that they provide architectural services along with other construction related services. many of the people out there that do the type of work you are having done are multidisciplinary (myself included) and will deal with this type of building project. They don't really need to be a fully qualified Architect so I wouldn't get too hung up on that element. They are still selling you a service as a professional and you should have every expectation that they will fulfil their duties diligently for the project you are appointing them to. Unfortunately it sounds like you got one of the rogues.

I would argue that even if they do complete everything they have priced for in their quote there is still room to withhold payment as they didn't perform the tasks that they were supposed to in a timely and effective manner; just churning out the job eventually isn't the same as providing the service diligently; timeliness is part of this. YES, THIS IS BASICALLY HOW I FEEL, I'D AGREED TO PAY FOR A SERVICE, BUT NEVER DREAMED IT WOULD TAKE 12 MONTHS

Based on your response above it does appear that some of the issues are as a result of how you appointed the consultant and that you only wanted them to take you up to planning stage (if I've read your response correct). I would say that the consultant should have explained the whole process to you so that you knew exactly what the various stages were and from there you could decide what services you wanted to buy. If the consultant did explain all of this then you have to take some responsibility as you only bought services up to planning; if they didn't explain it properly then they have again failed to act diligently. WE HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS INVOLVED, BUT DID MAKE IT CLEAR WE WANTED OUR BUILDER TO START WORK IN APRIL/MAY AND WAS THEREFORE LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WHO COULD GET US TO THAT POINT.

As a general rule I would expect a professional to list all services they are able to provide from Inception to Completion and then agree with you which of those you wanted them to provide. A good consultant will treat every prospective client as a layperson and will explain everything that they should know so that the client is making informed decisions. Yours doesn't appear to have done this but you can't really wind back the clock. I take it you have explained your disatisfaction with the services you have received; if so what was the response. You can still complain to the CIOB but the most they will do is sanction the person in question which doesn't really help you that much.

Repeatedly, we asked for a timetable showing each stage and who was responsible for what and how long each stage would be expected to take. We wanted to make sure that we did what we were suppose to and being a lay person, I thought the best way was to ask an expert to write it down.. He never did. I have about 3 times email him advising of our dissatisfaction, in fact, we almost didn't use him for the 2nd stage (building regs) but he promised to be more involved and communication what was going on. He didn't. It's only us withholding payment now, that has got him communicating with building regs and southern water, to find out what extra information they need.