Architect - taken 12 months to get extension agreed

lucylou32

Doozergirl wrote: »

I am going to stick my oar in and agree about the 'wonderful builder'. He hasn't built anything yet.

A wonderful builder would be grabbing the bull by the horns and asking the people involved !!!!!! is going on. I could not spend six months pottering on other jobs, having mouths to feed. The guy is either busy and therefore unconcerned, or lazy. Either way, I don't think wonderful comes in to it at all.

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt as I don't know anyone that isn't busy and assume that an extension in the 'future bank' is a nice thing to have.

I would be careful, OP, to make sure that your 'wonderful' antenna isn't broken, given the record this project already has.

It does sound like moving on to someone else and starting again is the first thing to do.

I still think the designer has been a bit rubbish. I also think it does help to do a bit of googling to work out what you should expect from a big project rather than sit wondering what happened and why when you're 11 months down the line.

And I do think that a wonderful builder would have made this happen, already.

Firstly, I've never referred to him as a 'wonderful builder'. Just, a builder who's done work for our family in the past and is highly recommended. You're also correct, he's always busy, he contacts me monthly to find out if I've heard an update from Owen and then when I say no, he says he'll be taking a job for 2 weeks/months and for me to let him know asap I hear something. He's regularly offers me his comiserations and has even recommended someone else for the job, but that person had a 3 month wait... Retrospectively, we should have gone with him... I'm not sure what else the builder could have done? He doesn't handle planning permissions/consents etc, he made that clear from the start.

I did the Google thing, which Is why I asked for a timeline and who's responsible for what.. Because Google was confusing lol

lucylou32

the_r_sole wrote: »

There's more going on here than we are being given...
No explanation of why an invoice was submitted before the person was appointed?!you'd have to ask the architect that
Still not sure if building regs were or weren't talked about at the outset, or why there was confusion here (surely all the others quoting for the job said about this issue too??) they probably were, but I had no idea of their relevance
The scope of the project seems to have changed but no reason why that has happened...?nope, not changed at all
Did the op get any comparable quoted from actual registered architects for the job? Did they know whether they were appointing an architect etc etcwe made it clear to each person we interviewed, we wanted a qualified architect, a few we rejected because they confirmed they weren't.
There have been errors and flaws here but it seems quite cloudy as to what actually happened and what the timeline was

Responded above.

System

Why would you appoint someone that had invoiced you before carrying out work? Did any of the others give you an invoice at your first meeting?!
Invoices generally have strict payment terms so what did that invoice say?
The building regs submission should be paid for, part of the verification process is to get comments from the local authority and respond to them.

If you have several quotes, surely you compared them, if there was only a couple of hundred quid between them I would be amazed if any had included them, which is unusual, so why would they all have not quoted for that?

In your op you said you were intending a detached house and the extensions, removing the house is a massive change if scope!?

I am really surprised by the quotes if they were from qualified architects, and why did you not discount this person if you discounted others who were not qualified?

The biggest elephant in the queue to get in the room here is, why would you go ahead to try and build something that doesn't meet your requirements?! The entire point of getting someone to design something for you is so that you get something you want, its pointless to spend that much money to not get what you want!

Doozergirl

I'm out. We're not getting anywhere, just talking.

I wonder if that is the problem.

teneighty

the_r_sole wrote: »

The biggest elephant in the queue to get in the room

Love this, my favorite quote of the year.

I have been following this thread but have so far resisted the urge to chip in as the whole scenario just does not add up. Ordinarily I would side with the OP but I'm leaning towards Furts, Doozergirl and Mr R Soles opinions.

Reminds me of a client I had a few months ago, just wouldn't listen to a word I said, did not read my report, wouldn't study the drawings and constantly argued because they thought they knew best. We went around in circles for weeks with 6 re-designs until we ended back almost identical to my original design and was the one and only times in 30 years I had to threaten legal proceedings to get paid. Needless to say they are now blacklisted as is the former client who recommended them to me.

Cannot believe OP is still referring to "the architect" where it was clearly stated in one of the early quotes that he refers to himself as an "architectural designer". If you are so hung up on having a registered architect I hope you are prepared to pay the 8% - 12% fee, not the roughly 2% fee your architectural designer has charged.

I would suggest OP goes back and carefully reads all the correspondence, fee quote/proposal, invoices etc. to get a clearer picture of what has been agreed and instructed as the examples given so far all contradict each other. Once you have the documentary proof that the designer has not provided what he promised or has not performed to the required professional standards you can take the necessary steps to complain and possibly recover any losses you have suffered. So far I have not read anything that would support that claim.

As for the designer submitting his invoice in January when he wasn't even instructed until 14th February when the brief was massively trimmed? On what planet do people live who think this is normal practice? I wish I could invoice for jobs that not only have I not done but the client hasn't even asked me to do yet.

MisterBaxter

Without wanting to cause offense to the OP it was fairly clear from the outset that they were clueless when it comes to construction projects. I can't help but think that some of the comments others have made assume that the OP has or at least should have had a level of understanding. I agree that the OP should have done some research before embarking on such a project but assuming that they have that knowledge is dangerous and is where projects start to go wrong. If you are going to assume anything assume that the client knows absolutely nothing and work up from there.

Some examples in the comments:-

• OP should have known that the project timetable was unrealistic - why would someone with no knowledge of construction know how long it takes to build.
• OP should have known that Building Regulations would be required - why assume anyone knows this
• OP should have known that an Architect would charge 8% not 2% - is this even true? I am doing some work for a LA and am paying 4.5% for an Architect.
• OP should know not to pay up front - that bald chap and the blond woman have strung out a whole TV series where naive people have paid builders large sums up front only to be ripped off so it is happening more often than it should.

I can't be the only person who puts everything in writing (or email) to their clients spelling out the process end to end, defining who does what, fees, charges, third party appointments etc. If that had happened in this case the OP would at least have something to refer to.

It is fair to say I took an immediate dislike and mistrust of the so called profession in this case. The OP from the outset and during the interview said they wanted and Architect, the professional in question took the commission knowing this and didn't correct the OP leaving the OP to believe they were appointing an Architect; this is dishonest and a misrepresentation. Again the OP could and certainly should have done some more research before making the appointment but that doesn't excuse the professional of their misrepresentation.

@lucylou32 - I hope you get this sorted and achieve the outcome you originally desired. Next time remember to ask many more questions before proceeding.

System

MisterBaxter wrote: »

Without wanting to cause offense to the OP it was fairly clear from the outset that they were clueless when it comes to construction projects. I can't help but think that some of the comments others have made assume that the OP has or at least should have had a level of understanding. I agree that the OP should have done some research before embarking on such a project but assuming that they have that knowledge is dangerous and is where projects start to go wrong. If you are going to assume anything assume that the client knows absolutely nothing and work up from there.

Some examples in the comments:-

• OP should have known that the project timetable was unrealistic - why would someone with no knowledge of construction know how long it takes to build.
• OP should have known that Building Regulations would be required - why assume anyone knows this
• OP should have known that an Architect would charge 8% not 2% - is this even true? I am doing some work for a LA and am paying 4.5% for an Architect.
• OP should know not to pay up front - that bald chap and the blond woman have strung out a whole TV series where naive people have paid builders large sums up front only to be ripped off so it is happening more often than it should.

I can't be the only person who puts everything in writing (or email) to their clients spelling out the process end to end, defining who does what, fees, charges, third party appointments etc. If that had happened in this case the OP would at least have something to refer to.

It is fair to say I took an immediate dislike and mistrust of the so called profession in this case. The OP from the outset and during the interview said they wanted and Architect, the professional in question took the commission knowing this and didn't correct the OP leaving the OP to believe they were appointing an Architect; this is dishonest and a misrepresentation. Again the OP could and certainly should have done some more research before making the appointment but that doesn't excuse the professional of their misrepresentation.

@lucylou32 - I hope you get this sorted and achieve the outcome you originally desired. Next time remember to ask many more questions before proceeding.

Don't disagree with any of what you have said here, but there are some niggling inconsistencies with the ops story. They approached as many as five designers to quote for this job, I just can't believe that not a single one of them had set out a fee proposal as outlined in your post.
It would be normal to also indicate fee for each stage in a letter like that, but with only a couple of hundred between the quotes I would be shocked if any of them included the fees for building regulations, which is surprising if five different designers had not quoted for that stage or mentioned it was necessary - without some kind of direction for the op on what they were quoting for.
I would also be extremely surprised if not one of these people discussed the program, local authority processing times, a proposed procurement route, involvement of other specialists etc.
We still have no idea if the op directly asked this person if they were a registered architect and they confirmed they were, or whether they just assumed the membership they have was equivalent, sounds like the person is fairly clear on their qualifications...
The op wasn't asked to pay up front for any services but they were (seemingly) invoiced by the designer before they had been appointed which is bizarre in any area of the construction industry, at least if a builder had asked for a payment up front for materials they would have been asked to build the thing!
If you look around the internet, lots of architects have rough guides to their costs or the way they price work, riba have a guide to appointing an architect also, there is information there if you are willing to look - my issue isn't the percentage fee as this can vary, the issue I have is that if a registered architect was quoting within a couple of hundred quid for the equivalent services - what was the scope they had been asked to provide, it certainly doesn't indicate a fee level for a full service for two extensions and a detached house!

Furts

Doozergirl wrote: »

I'm out. We're not getting anywhere, just talking.

I wonder if that is the problem.

I was out at #45. And I came in later than you because I had been watching from the sidelines!

I use the litmus paper test in these protracted posts. Here we are at #59, and hours of sound professional advice have been offered from many sound sources. Lucylou32 has not hit the thanks button at any time...I rest my case.

lucylou32

Furts wrote: »

I was out at #45. And I came in later than you because I had been watching from the sidelines!

I use the litmus paper test in these protracted posts. Here we are at #59, and hours of sound professional advice have been offered from many sound sources. Lucylou32 has not hit the thanks button at any time...I rest my case.

I'm sorry, is there a special significance to the 'thanks' button? I have stated 'thank you' in writing, to those who offered me some very helpful advice. (Posts 17, 34, 35, 45 and 48) if some form of credit is given to those posters by me hitting the 'thanks' button as well, I'm happy to do so. Personally, I think taking the time to write 'thank you' it is more personal.

lucylou32

YouKwoteMe wrote: »

Hi,
I do submissions to building regulations, plan and permissions when there is a need for it, I am a Civil Engineer.

It is all very confusing and lengthy, but, what i have to ask if the person doing the drawings went to the property to do a survey and take the measurements? From there he should have known if there is drains going under the property. yes, he did, he knew there were drains, but assumed there would be no issue

I have seen a few posts regarding CCTV surveys to the drain... I don't think you should do that as it will be a complete waist of money... CCTV survey will show you the inside of the pipe, well if it is blocked I would say you should but for this purpose not at all.
The water authorities and the designer would want is the location of the chambers and pipes instead, geo XYZ, cover and invert levels. This will be to know where all seats in relation to the foundations and the weight transferred from the house to the ground will have an impact to the pipe.
No matter what this can be easily over come by "bridging" the foundation over the pipe, which might require some reinforcement to the foundation.it was the local authority who charged just over £900 and said the CCTV was part of what they had to do, in order to give approval for a build over - latest update, they don't want us building over it

I would say it all depends on the contract you have with the designer. But it looks like something that can be solved with a few calculations to demonstrate the house will not have an impact on the pipe.there is no contract with the designer. And it appears the extension designed, went directly over their pipe

There is a dual opinion in regards to the RIBA or ARB, my view is that it doesn't matter, you have asked him to do the job and he would need to deliver.

The worst case scenario was 8 months for a full P&P and building regs all singed off ready to build. Sometimes it is not due to the designer but the council and the type of claims they receive form neighbours and others...

Again, depends on the contract, with me normally what i do is not to receive any money before it is all approved... this is what I assumed, but a number of other posters are saying I should have paid upfront, before the work was carried out/before building regulations were provided (which we still haven't received)

I know that some companies will charge you if you want to cease the contract by not paying, so be aware of that before going to someone.
I would also suggest you have a formal meeting with him to discuss and expose the issue, take a witness. If nothing, issue a formal letter describing the reasons for cancelation, but you will need to ask for the balance (for him or to him) to include an answer dead line.
From there is when you can go towards a resolution, finish off the drawings with him or ask for another designer.

Hope this helps

I did, when we realised that building regulations were needed and hadn't been considered, wrote him a letter/email of complaint, saying I'd look elsewhere for another designer, unless he promised to communication more, let us know what was going on, give us timescales etc.. He promised all these things by return, so we gave him the go ahead re building regulations and... Low and behold, nothing changed, we still didn't get updated with his progress or lack thereof.