Vehicle Control Services - HM Courts and Tribunal Service Claim Form received...

Wrapper

Redx wrote: »

if the driver was named, they are on the court papers and will be up before the court if its not settled "out of court"

if no driver was named, then its the RK they are taking to court (or the keeper) , but the same applies

the paperwork will cite who they are taking to court, normally the keeper if the driver wasnt named in any appeals

if they cite POFA 2012 and have adhered to it, they will use it against the keeper in court, or they will say that the keeper is most likely to be the driver, trying to convince the judge their claim is valid, plus any other legal arguments they can come up with

your defence will consist of legal arguments that say their claim is not valid, the keeper isnt liable, the signage was poor, there is no landowner contract in place (no locus standii) , NTK flaws etc

if the judge awards them the case, the judge will decide on damages and on costs, this total has to be paid within 28 days of there will be a CCJ and then bailiffs would be involved

if you win, its over with and you may claim costs as well , subject to any limits under the small claims rules

Right, so could go either way?

They wouldn't know who the driver was, just the registered keeper (who is named on the papers).

The signage is everywhere in fairness, they have signed the car park well. It just doesn't alter the fact they brought in the VCS at the same time they took away spaces intentionally. Someone was going to get fined.

As for who owns the land, I'm guessing Network Rail?

They're asking for £740, I'm guessing this could go up if lost? I honestly cannot see me winning this. I'm not the sort to back down at all, but I pick my battles and hassles.

Redx

nobody was "fined", you have been told this numerous times and you wont find that word anywhere on your paperwork , (you seeem obsessed by this F word)

they will have sent invoices called parking charge notices to the RK after obtaining RK details from the DVLA (or they were penalty notices if bylaws apply)

if they can prove POFA 2012 applies, or can prove the RK and driver are one and the same, or that the driver is before the judge , they can enforce the invoices against the RK or driver and ask the judge to award them the claim

earlier you were asked to find out IF THIS IS RAILWAY LAND OR PRIVATE LAND, if RAILWAY LAND you were asked to check if BYLAWS apply, due to the fact that it would not be RELEVANT LAND under POFA2012

unfortunately, your lack of knowledge, confusion over the court papers origin and your ANNOYED stance are putting people off helping you, which is a shame

if its not relevant land, then POFA2012 doesnt apply and they would have to convince the judge that they have the right person in the "dock" , plus they would have to show locus standii too , plus the NOT A GPEOL question would also come up

you may win, you may lose, but until you calm down and learn the facts and dont shoot the messengers that you asked for help you are a "lawyer" with a "fool" for a client

calm down and do some research

System

@Wrapper - Was this CENTRO?

Wrapper

IamEmanresu wrote: »

@Wrapper - Was this CENTRO?

I believe so yes. They employ VCS though.

Wrapper

Redx wrote: »

nobody was "fined", you have been told this numerous times and you wont find that word anywhere on your paperwork

they will have sent invoices called parking charge notices to the RK after obtaining RK details from the DVLA

if they can prove POFA 2012 applies, or can prove the RK and driver are one and the same, or that the driver is before the judge , they can enforce the invoices against the RK and ask the judge to award them the claim

earlier you were asked to find out IF THIS IS RAILWAY LAND OR PRIVATE LAND, if RAILWAY LAND Yyou were asked to check if BYLAWS apply, due to the fact that it would not be RELEVANT LAND under POFA2012

unfortunately, your lack of knowledge, confusion over the court papers origin and your ANNOYED stance are putting people off helping you, which is a shame

if its not relevant land, then POFA2012 doesnt apply and they would have to convince the judge that they have the right person in the "dock" , plus they would have to show locus standii too

you may win, you may lose, but until you calm down and learn the facts and dont shoot the messengers that you asked for help you are a "lawyer" with a "fool" for a client

calm down and do some research

I'm calm, genuinely. I'm just trying to see this in black and white :beer:

As for the land ownership, I'm not sure how I'd find this out or how long this would take?

I did find something, registered keepers are apparently by default the drivers of the car if they are unable to prove the driver? I think this was brought in 2012?

System

If this is CENTRO there will be bylaws so not relevant land. There is also the issue of "standing" in that criminal (bylaws) laws are superior to contract law - as such they are asking for a bribe not to press bylaw charges.

You might want to take this one off board and get a bit of help rather than broadcast it on an open forum. But if this does see the inside of a court, it will be a first.

Redx

the LAND REGISTRY hold details of land ownership, I thought that would be obvious ( it costs a few pounds)

plus you were asked to ring the railway company or station and ask who the landowner is (in a previous reply)

POFA2012 doesnt apply on non-relevant land, railway land is considered non-relevant land and is usually subject to local bylaws, as explained over on pepipoo (you need to edit post #1 over there too)

so the 2012 law wont apply if the land is not relevant land, meaning only the driver can be held liable (but the court papers are likely to have been served on the keeper, who may not be the driver)

if its subject to railway bylaws, then these expire after 6 months , plus I am not convinced that VCS can bring about 6 prosecutions under the railway bylaws, maybe just the landowner

yes its complicated, partly because we believe its railway land, plus it depends if VCS sent out parking charge notices (under civil law) or penalty charge notices (under the bylaws) - which is why we keep insisting they are not fines, because that option doesnt exist

Wrapper

Redx wrote: »

the LAND REGISTRY hold details of land ownership, I thought that would be obvious ( it costs a few pounds)

plus you were asked to ring the railway company or station and ask who the landowner is (in a previous reply)

POFA2012 doesnt apply on non-relevant land, railway land is considered non-relevant land and is usually subject to local bylaws, as explained over on pepipoo (you need to edit post #1 over there too)

so the 2012 law wont apply if the land is not relevant land, meaning only the driver can be held liable (but the court papers are likely to have been served on the keeper, who may not be the driver)

if its subject to railway bylaws, then these expire after 6 months , plus I am not convinced that VCS can bring about 6 prosecutions under the railway bylaws, maybe just the landowner

yes its complicated, partly because we believe its railway land

According to a thread on Pepipoo they would "enforce under railway byelaws"

IamEmanresu wrote: »

If this is CENTRO there will be bylaws so not relevant land. There is also the issue of "standing" in that criminal (bylaws) laws are superior to contract law - as such they are asking for a bribe not to press bylaw charges.

You might want to take this one off board and get a bit of help rather than broadcast it on an open forum. But if this does see the inside of a court, it will be a first.

Ok. That's a bit reassuring.

bod1467

Wrapper wrote: »

I did find something, registered keepers are apparently by default the drivers of the car if they are unable to prove the driver? I think this was brought in 2012?

That's POFA 2012 ... and you have the wrong end of the stick. POFA enabled vehicle keepers to be liable for parking invoices not paid by drivers. It does NOT define that the keeper must have been the driver ... not in any way shape or form. And there are strict requirements for the claimant (VCS in this case) to enforce keeper liability under POFA ... this will be part of the defence. (Having copies of the original PCNs will be very useful for this).

bazster

They will not "enforce under railway byelaws". Only the Train Operating Company (not VCS) has the power to do that, and they're too late, any prosecution would've needed to be brought within 6 months of the alleged offence(s).

No, this is purely a civil matter concerning a supposed breach of contract. Have you got photos of the VCS signs? We need to see them.