Seller lied on property questionaire - Electrical fire

TBagpuss

Well, you have to prove that there was a misrepresentation. You just don't have to prove that it was fraudulent.
So you would have to prove that the electrical works had been done more recently than 2005.
If they were done later, and your sellers stated categorically that nothing was done since 2005, then they made a misrepresentation.
If you can prove that, then you don't have to also prove that they did so knowingly, the onus shifts to them to prove that that they reasonably believed that what they said was true - so, for instance, if they only bought the house recently and were told by *their* sellers that no work had been done.

I think the fact that they answered 'no' and also marked 'to follow' should have caused you to ask for clarification. You would need to check your paperwork carefully - I would expect your conveyancer to have asked you whether you wanted to raise any further questions.

Did you have a survey, and did your surveyor recommend a separate electrical survey?

In the first instance, I think you need to establish whether your electrician is willing to say that the work is definitely post-2005.

Given you moved in in June you would also have to think about whether and how you could prove that the issues were there when you bought the property and that you had not made any changes yourselves in the past 4 months.

sean1989_2

TBagpuss wrote: »

Well, you have to prove that there was a misrepresentation. You just don't have to prove that it was fraudulent.
So you would have to prove that the electrical works had been done more recently than 2005.
If they were done later, and your sellers stated categorically that nothing was done since 2005, then they made a misrepresentation.
If you can prove that, then you don't have to also prove that they did so knowingly, the onus shifts to them to prove that that they reasonably believed that what they said was true - so, for instance, if they only bought the house recently and were told by *their* sellers that no work had been done.

I think the fact that they answered 'no' and also marked 'to follow' should have caused you to ask for clarification. You would need to check your paperwork carefully - I would expect your conveyancer to have asked you whether you wanted to raise any further questions.

Did you have a survey, and did your surveyor recommend a separate electrical survey?

In the first instance, I think you need to establish whether your electrician is willing to say that the work is definitely post-2005.

Given you moved in in June you would also have to think about whether and how you could prove that the issues were there when you bought the property and that you had not made any changes yourselves in the past 4 months.

I remember when querying the ECU when moving in that scottish power said it was fitted in 2007. ( how they know this i dont know but will call them to clarify)

i can 100% confirm that the conveyance team released nothing to us about the electrics or anything involved - nor did they tell us a test was not completed ( if one wasnt ) but we certainly dont have a certificate or any proof.

I would question the sellers integrity anyway when looking at other "fixes" they have done in the house - let alone the fact the garden floods everytime it rains due to the fact they dont have a drain and just a gutter - lawn is practically a swamp - yet this was also marked as "no" under the flooding section.

theres also paperwork that says they didnt have permissions to extend the house - but they certainly have and yet this paperwork came through post completion.

There is also questions completly left blank on their side.

Unsure how the conveyance team never raised this to us.

kinger101

You are expecting to much of your conveyancer. They don't know what level of due diligence you require on electrics.

I don't know what "Every part of the paperwork does not mention any electrical report" means. On the TA6 form, the vendor simply answers a fixed set of questions.

Whatever Scottish Power says is irrelevant. Your surveyor almost certainly told you something about the age of the consumer unit. Your conveyancer is not responsible for reading and acting on this; you are.

For whatever reason, you neglected to get the electrics inspected. If you want to demonstrate you were mislead by the vendor, you'll need to demonstrate that work was carried out post 2005. Read the TA6 properly.

Maybe if you can find proof that the shower and cooker were manufactured or purchased after this time, you'll have a case. Once you have, speak to a solicitor. But in the meantime, don't go blaming them for something for which they are not responsible. Many people never even show their survey to their solicitor (as it can open up cans of worms when getting mortgages).

sean1989_2

kinger101 wrote: »

You are expecting to much of your conveyancer. They don't know what level of due diligence you require on electrics.

I don't know what "Every part of the paperwork does not mention any electrical report" means. On the TA6 form, the vendor simply answers a fixed set of questions.

Whatever Scottish Power says is irrelevant. Your surveyor almost certainly told you something about the age of the consumer unit. Your conveyancer is not responsible for reading and acting on this; you are.

For whatever reason, you neglected to get the electrics inspected. If you want to demonstrate you mislead by the vendor, you'll need to demonstrate that work was carried out post 2005. Read the TA6 properly.

Maybe if you can find proof that the shower and cooker were manufactured or purchased after this time, you'll have a case. Once you have, speak to a solicitor. But in the meantime, don't go blaming them for something for which they are not responsible. Many people never even show their survey to their solicitor (as it can open up cans of worms when getting mortgages).

Following this i decided to go on the prowl through the house...

I have found an invoice in the previous occupents name relating to the installation of an electircal hob and oven - Dated 01/09/2009

My assumption is then that they were the ones that have installed the isolator unit in the cuboard - the switch though is by passed and not used - i can turn the oven on and off using a wall socket its plugged into.

i would now assume that following this they decided to sort the shower out by using the cooker leads that are now left dangling around in our walls.

i will do some more digging to find the shower reciept/invoice - but im sure a serial number and a call to the company would provide sufficient evidence.

Anyone can confirm that this is the evidence i need to start to obtain?

Atomix

We've owned and sold x4 properties since 2001.... How do you know it wasn't a previous owner, or a previous, previous, previous owner... Just sayin.:o

Atomix

Oops - just read your 'cooker install 2009' post - forget my post....

sean1989_2

Atomix wrote: »

Oops - just read your 'cooker install 2009' post - forget my post....

also the land reg report states they purchased from the council a million and one years ago...

Furthermore -
the boiler was installed in 2008 - no certificate
the shower was first available in May 2008 according to the manufacturers website.

So am i to now presume that my OP was correct and we have been lied to and can start proceedings in one way or another?

cattermole

kinger101 wrote: »

You are expecting to much of your conveyancer. They don't know what level of due diligence you require on electrics.

I don't know what "Every part of the paperwork does not mention any electrical report" means. On the TA6 form, the vendor simply answers a fixed set of questions.

Whatever Scottish Power says is irrelevant. Your surveyor almost certainly told you something about the age of the consumer unit. Your conveyancer is not responsible for reading and acting on this; you are.

For whatever reason, you neglected to get the electrics inspected. If you want to demonstrate you were mislead by the vendor, you'll need to demonstrate that work was carried out post 2005. Read the TA6 properly.

Maybe if you can find proof that the shower and cooker were manufactured or purchased after this time, you'll have a case. Once you have, speak to a solicitor. But in the meantime, don't go blaming them for something for which they are not responsible. Many people never even show their survey to their solicitor (as it can open up cans of worms when getting mortgages).

So you are saying the conveyancer is not there to identify any risk to their clients interests and the lender I beg to differ?

If the TA6 said "to follow" they should have asked for for this to be confirmed or for further information.

If the buyer is having a mortgage then they are also acting as we all know for the building society. Most certainly our buyers solicitor has been very diigent on the electrics and not at their instigation either. If no inspection had ever been done on the electrics in 12.1 and the answer is no then they should have advised the client to have it checked surely?

cattermole

sean1989 wrote: »

also the land reg report states they purchased from the council a million and one years ago...

Furthermore -
the boiler was installed in 2008 - no certificate
the shower was first available in May 2008 according to the manufacturers website.

So am i to now presume that my OP was correct and we have been lied to and can start proceedings in one way or another?

Your solicitor should have picked up on no certificate for boiler. Did they answer yes to boiler installation and it being 2008?

sean1989_2

cattermole wrote: »

Your solicitor should have picked up on no certificate for boiler. Did they answer yes to boiler installation and it being 2008?

They put that it was installed in "1998" yet the paperwork clearly states otherwise

I also remember asking about the boiler and they said "10 years old ish" obviously no proof of this as it was spoken but that would have took them pre 2005 ish

At the time i wasnt very clued up on what should be provided and what shouldnt - first time buyers seeing a house that ticked all the boxes after many viewings - you tend to just want to buy it...

So far i have
the oven and hob paperwork
the boiler paperwork
manufacturers date of the shower

all post 2005 -

Now,

If they selected that no work has been done and then no to the tests - i presume the conveyencer thought nothing more of it - where as if they would have stated electrical changes had taken place - i would have been quesitoning this and im sure they would to - this is why im so furious. A death trap that they could have declared but decided not to in order to save a few thousand pounds

not worth 2 lives in my opinion