All Season Tyre advice please....

Gloomendoom

AdrianC wrote: »

Now look at the asterisk after M+S, and read the italicised footnote that refers to.

I did. It makes no difference if the tyres in question are manufactured as all-season or winter.

AdrianC

bigjl wrote: »

I must admit that I thought that having M+S without the snowflake might have meant it was an All Season of some kind.

Unfortunately not. It's an old, and very outdated, marking and really means nothing very much.

I am even more desperate to get the tyres changed on the Berlingo now as it has one winter on the rear and the other a budget with M+S

What is that budget? It always makes me grit my teeth when I see a real mixed bag of cheap rubbish on a car - especially when it's something worth considerably more than disposable shed money

Gloomendoom

I found the source of my German info...

In such weather conditions only tyres which have the sign ‘M + S’ (mud and snow tyres) on the side wall may be used. Winter tyres and all-season tyres with this symbol are acceptable. Many of these tyres also display a symbol of a three-peaked mountain with an inset snow flake.

https://www.wbs-law.de/eng/road-traffic-law-eng/law-winter-tyres-germany-48118/

Again, it looks like the onus is on the driver to show that the tyres are designed for all-season or winter use.

I know mine are because they say "All-season" on the sidewall.

AdrianC

Gloomendoom wrote: »

I found the source of my German info...

https://www.wbs-law.de/eng/road-traffic-law-eng/law-winter-tyres-germany-48118/

Again, it looks like the onus is on the driver to show that the tyres are designed for all-season or winter use.

I know mine are because they say "All-season" on the sidewall.

So there we go. Semi-horse's mouth that just "M+S" is not enough.

Gloomendoom

AdrianC wrote: »

So there we go. Semi-horse's mouth that just "M+S" is not enough.

It was enough on my previous set of Goodyears.

They had just M+S without "All-season" but they were clearly marketed as such and had the winter abilities to match.

Iceweasel

What a minefield of info.

The trouble is that some of these web-sites give their interpretation of the law as opposed to quoting it.

I would have thought that any tyre with the M+S or M&S or MS marking would meet the regs.

Any tyre with the Snow-flake and the 3 mountain peaks symbol definitely meets the requirements, of course.

Adrian - I'm sure that there are still many M+S tyres on the market - mainly intended for 4X4 use that have only M+S markings - so I hardly think that it is an 'old and outdated marking that doesn't mean very much'.

I have e-mailed 2 tyre manufacturers to get their opinion/clarification but I shan't hold my breath waiting for a reply.

I still can't find anything recent in English or German which clearly states that winter tyres MUST have the Snow-flake and that M+S in not acceptable any more.

This info is dated 2013 -

In such weather conditions only tyres which have the sign ‘M + S’ (mud and snow tyres) on the side wall may be used. Winter tyres and all-season tyres with this symbol are acceptable. Many of these tyres also display a symbol of a three-peaked mountain with an inset snow flake.

This too is dated 2013:

http://driveeuropenews.com/2013/11/06/winter-tyre-rules-in-europe/

In that one it says 'Winter tyres, or equivalent, are needed'

AdrianC

Iceweasel wrote: »

Adrian - I'm sure that there are still many M+S tyres on the market - mainly intended for 4X4 use that have only M+S markings - so I hardly think that it is an 'old and outdated marking that doesn't mean very much'.

I doubt you can buy any 4x4 tyres - very high-performance excepted - which aren't M+S marked. Doesn't mean they're all winter or all-season tyres, though. The most useful set of terms to figure out what sort of use "proper" 4x4 tyres are suited for are H/T (Highway Terrain), A/T (All Terrain) and M/T (Mud Terrain). I don't really need to explain those further, do I...? And, yes, damn near all H/T are M+S marked.

The Cooper winters on my Landy are M+S rated, of course, but so's the ancient Michelin XPC in the back as a spare - and they're all very much road-biased tyres. Is the Mich an all-season or a summer? <shrug> I can find it listed as both if I google, and nothing authoritative from the manufacturer, because it's long since discontinued. Would I argue it at the side of a German road with Herr Polizei? Not a chance.

Like I said - all "M+S" means is that there are grooves clear across the tread, and at least a certain %age of groove to block. No more than that. There is no testing involved, unlike mountain/snowflake-marked tyres.

bigjl

AdrianC wrote: »

Unfortunately not. It's an old, and very outdated, marking and really means nothing very much.



What is that budget? It always makes me grit my teeth when I see a real mixed bag of cheap rubbish on a car - especially when it's something worth considerably more than disposable shed money

I am thinking of spending £200/250 tops which will get the Nokian All Seasons or I can get the Maxxis ones for under £200.

The Berlingo only cost a grand but with just over 30k miles from new (07) I think it is good value to spend some money getting it up to spec.

WBAC valued it at just under £1800 so there is plenty of equity in it.

It is nice sitting in traffic not worrying about a DPF clogging up for the first time in a couple of years.

Short journeys in town? No problem.

And giving 32mpg mostly round town. Which is not much worse than a diesel Berlingo but without the complications.

bigjl

AdrianC wrote: »

I doubt you can buy any 4x4 tyres - very high-performance excepted - which aren't M+S marked. Doesn't mean they're all winter or all-season tyres, though. The most useful set of terms to figure out what sort of use "proper" 4x4 tyres are suited for are H/T (Highway Terrain), A/T (All Terrain) and M/T (Mud Terrain). I don't really need to explain those further, do I...? And, yes, damn near all H/T are M+S marked.

The Cooper winters on my Landy are M+S rated, of course, but so's the ancient Michelin XPC in the back as a spare - and they're all very much road-biased tyres. Is the Mich an all-season or a summer? <shrug> I can find it listed as both if I google, and nothing authoritative from the manufacturer, because it's long since discontinued. Would I argue it at the side of a German road with Herr Polizei? Not a chance.

Like I said - all "M+S" means is that there are grooves clear across the tread, and at least a certain %age of groove to block. No more than that. There is no testing involved, unlike mountain/snowflake-marked tyres.

The Pirelli Scorpions fitted to the Range Rover Sport I am driving are summer tyres, no mention of M+S on the sidewall, backed up by Pirelli doing a Winter version.

This may just be because they are 20" rims so perhaps it is different on 19" shod Sports (this is a 2013 old shape Autobiography)

The 2015 Vogue I was driving 2 weeks ago had 20" wheels but they were M+S with snowflake/mountain symbol.

I must admit I was surprised that the Pirellis on the RRS were no M+S or All Season.

The Goodyears on my old Pathfinder where M+S branded. (HT)

alderpoint

Wherever you are, what you need is tyres that:
(a) satisfy the local bobby* and so s/he lets you use the road, and
(b) satisfy the local magistrate* that you were properly equipped for the conditions and hence were not automatically liable for the accident.

*or whatever the local equivalent is called.

Generally (a) has lots of discretion, and if you look like you know what you are doing in the prevailing conditions you'll be okay, whereas (b) is likely to go by the letter of the local law - which is down to their interpretation, and not yours.