Britain and the EU

CLAPTON

Generali wrote: »

I think you mean acquis communitaire. Schengen is the passport-free zone within the EU that the UK is not a part of.

The right under the acquis to freedom of movement of labour is a capitalist ideal. The theory goes that you can't meaningfully have a single market for capital and goods and not have one for labour. Labour should be able to follow price signals as much as capital and goods do. That means Polish plumbers going to London where there is a shortage of plumbers which has pushed wages up.

I think that the market being able to respond to price signals is a good thing and something to be encouraged. It's what makes capitalism tick.

You preach one thing and act differently.

How do you explain your own choice for you and your family, emigrating to a small population that doesn't allow Asian plumbers (in umlimited numbers) going to Aus?

I'm pretty sure if Aus allowed unlimited freedom of movement wages would fall to the benefit of all in Aus.

I think that the market in Aus being able to respond to the price signals is a good thing in Aus and something to encourage in Aus.

Generali

CLAPTON wrote: »

You preach one thing and act differently.

How do you explain your own choice for you and your family, emigrating to a small population that doesn't allow Asian plumbers (in umlimited numbers) going to Aus?

I'm pretty sure if Aus allowed unlimited freedom of movement wages would fall to the benefit of all in Aus.

I think that the market in Aus being able to respond to the price signals is a good thing in Aus and something to encourage in Aus.

I think it's possibly a little unfair to lay the immigration policy of Australia at my door and funnily enough I considered many things, none of which were immigration policy, when I moved to Australia. As I don't even get to vote in Australia I don't really get any say over it.

CLAPTON

Generali wrote: »

I think it's possibly a little unfair to lay the immigration policy of Australia at my door and funnily enough I considered many things, none of which were immigration policy, when I moved to Australia. As I don't even get to vote in Australia I don't really get any say over it.

You choose to live there : in a small population country rather than in the safety and security and guaranteed prosperity of the EU.

You choose to live in a country that sets its own immigration policy (of course a code word for deeply racist people) rather than allow the policy to be set in conjunction with the 500 million people near by.

leveller2911

Generali wrote: »

Labour should be able to follow price signals as much as capital and goods do. That means Polish plumbers going to London where there is a shortage of plumbers which has pushed wages up.

The correct solution is to train more UK school leavers in plumbing,bricklaying etc with genuine apprenticeships but rather than the common sense approach successive Governments have let our young people rot on 1yr training schemes and dead end low paid jobs. Instead of that we have an influx of immigrant labour which suppresses wages here whilst at the same time we see one of the biggest transfer of wealth in history from the EU to Poland.

I think that the market being able to respond to price signals is a good thing and something to be encouraged. It's what makes capitalism tick.

So we have massive immigration, the majority of whom are low skilled ,they have helped to suppress wages of the working class and at the same time we have all manner of government schemes in the housing sector (HTB Equity Loan etc) which has helped prop up the price of housing and remaining out of reach of the many not helped by the wage suppression and people can't afford to buy.

Its a double whammy, suppress wages whilst at the same time promoting schemes that help keep the housing bubble inflated.

Gen, the avaerage age of the FTB is now 34 yrs old and that doesn't account for all of those people who have had to rely on the Bank of Mum & Dad.

Allowing the developers a free range on building would not solve the problem because its not in their interest to build on a massive scale,prices would drop,profit margins would drop and useable land will become even more scarce.

You're happy to see the capitalist model to keep wages low but not to reduce the cost of houses. If we must have capitalism then stop f*****g around with it to protect the interests of the banks,large landlords and the minted at the expense of the working class.

Generali

CLAPTON wrote: »

You choose to live there : in a small population country rather than in the safety and security and guaranteed prosperity of the EU.

You choose to live in a country that sets its own immigration policy (of course a code word for deeply racist people) rather than allow the policy to be set in conjunction with the 500 million people near by.

Mostly I chose to leave a cold, damp, dark island for a warm sunny one. I considered immigration policy only insofar as it let me live in the country.


I realise that immigration is the only thing you care about but others live more rounded lives, even a rather sad geek like me.

vivatifosi

Don't have time to post properly as have just got in from work. I am moderately pro-EU (but would rein back a bit), however this even managed to get my back up:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/agriculture/11952296/Farmers-forced-to-erect-EU-billboards.html

Thinking "oh surely not" I went looking to see whether this is true. It is:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/countryside-stewardship-manual/8-terms-and-conditions
(Click on and open point 8.4).

leveller2911

vivatifosi wrote: »

Don't have time to post properly as have just got in from work. I am moderately pro-EU (but would rein back a bit), however this even managed to get my back up:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/agriculture/11952296/Farmers-forced-to-erect-EU-billboards.html

Thinking "oh surely not" I went looking to see whether this is true. It is:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/countryside-stewardship-manual/8-terms-and-conditions
(Click on and open point 8.4).

Doesn't stop them from putting a banner up next to the EU one , 3x the size and saying "Vote Out"..:D

I can't see many farmers being anti EU and can't see them biting the hand that feeds them. If we were all given £thousands a year for doing little we would vote to stay in and the farmers vote was "bought" years ago by the EU.

Labour did the same thing from 1997-2010 with Tax Credits.

Sapphire

vivatifosi wrote: »

Don't have time to post properly as have just got in from work. I am moderately pro-EU (but would rein back a bit), however this even managed to get my back up:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/agriculture/11952296/Farmers-forced-to-erect-EU-billboards.html

Thinking "oh surely not" I went looking to see whether this is true. It is:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/countryside-stewardship-manual/8-terms-and-conditions
(Click on and open point 8.4).

Total b******s, making threats against our country (that's the vile Juncker and France, again). Such things make me all the more determined to vote for 'out'.

(If what France threatened us with actually happened, extremely strict checks should be made before anyone tried to get to Britain, with, if necessary, the tunnel being closed, and the people who crossed over to us illegally from France being returned to their countries of origin, no ifs, no buts, and no recourse to lawyers financially benefitting from their actions by supporting them.)

You've no idea how angry this is making me…:mad:

I think, though, thinking about it, that the illegal migrant invasion is going to erupt so strongly (and soon) in all the EU countries, including Germany, that drastic measures will be taken to halt it. The populations won't put up with it, whatever Merkel and Juncker say (hopefully they will be both forced to resign by their own people).

Generali

It looks like some serious study is being done into the impact of Brexit at last. This is one on the farming sector (as the full survey costs £900 you'll excuse me from only linking to the Executive Summary I'm sure):

http://foodchemicalnewspromo.agra-net.com/files/2015/10/AE-Preparing-for-Brexit-SUMMARY.pdf

It contains a timely reminder for those that point to the Norway model:

The ‘Norway approach’ to access for a non-member country to the EU market (basically, membership of the European Economic Area with special deals on the side) is likely to be unsatisfactory, and as far as the food and agriculture sector is concerned, it would be positively disadvantageous.

According to the Guardian, the report claims that 10% of UK farms would not go bust as a result of a Brexit.

Of course that assumes that the UK would be allowed to have the same market access as Norway. A Brexit would, I assume, be met with a determination by the EU that no other country would be encouraged to go down that path. The EU would happily destroy as much of the economy of the UK as it could. All those electronics and car factories that make up a large chunk of the UK's manufacturing sector would be closed within a couple of years.

If you hate the EU enough to want to be poor then fair enough but be under no illusions: the UK will be in poverty if they quit the EU.

Mistermeaner

Not checked facts but the above would be my fear - an exit based on emotive dislike of migration and bendy bananas rather than proper consideration of economic consequences.

As with all such things getting proper financial data will nigh on impossible and also buried in a pile of daily mail garbage