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Britain and the EU

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Comments

  • antrobus
    antrobus Posts: 17,386 Forumite
    The EU currently has over 50 free trade agreements with countries around the world to overcome trade tarrifs and is nagotiating more so I really don't see why we would be exempt from a tarrif free trade deal. ....

    So it does. But nevertheless, the import tariff on (for example) 'high quality beef and veal' interstat code 02012020 is 12.80 % + 176.80 EUR / 100 kg. Thus, if you are (say) a Scottish Angus beef producer currently exporting to France, it will matter which side of the EU tariff wall you find yourself.
    ...Go back to 2009 and the UK charged trade tarrifs to non EU countries of around 1.76% tarrif so giving the impression that we would be paying sky high tarrifs is a red herring imo. This makes the EU as a customs block with tarrifs obsolete....

    That's not really relevant. The point at issue is specifically agricultural tariffs. And even 'free trade' agreements between the EU and other nations tend to have specific rules regarding food.
  • Mistermeaner
    Mistermeaner Posts: 3,024 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts
    Sapphire wrote: »
    Your 'emotive dislike of migration' is others concern about:

    1. An invasion by non-European people who have a general dislike of us and would wish us harm. There have been wars and poverty in the world's history, and they have resulted in migrations of relatively small amounts of people, which have generally benefited Britain. However, we are seeing a migration of potentially billions of non-Europeans to Europe, who would bring ruin to the continent (and in the process themselves). Britain has never suffered cruel invasion, unlike some other European countries; I trust that will remain the case, but am not optimistic given the way things are going. Britain has become soft and vulnerable, which is not the way to be when faced with ideologies that are certainly not that.

    2. The massive strain on finances (paid for by taxpayers) illegal migrants from non-European countries especially bring to Britain at a time when the health service, for example, is already hugely stretched and can't cope with the indigenous population. And what about education? I've heard it said by illegal migrants that 'all they want to do' is to gain an education – who do you think is going to finance that?. Housing? There isn't enough to go around already, and even if there was, who would pay for it? Again, taxpayers.

    3. The influx of such people when there aren't enough jobs in this country, and of their impact on the indigenous working population's wages if they do get work. What do you think that the illegal migrants from the Middle East and Africa (composed largely of fit young men, contrary to the emotive pictures being thrust upon us by the press) will do when they realise there aren't jobs for them?

    4. The cultural impact on a society that has taken centuries to build up a decent political and cultural system (flawed it may be, but European culture in general is a lot better than that of the majority of other countries, and is now under threat by a civilisation that is hostile to it). Have you not read about the threats by ISIS to flood the European continent with Muslims? Do you agree to that?

    5. Being coerced into being a part of a United States of Germany, which engages in the sort of bullying of small nations that is going on now.

    6. The impact on the countries of origin of so many people leaving them. Changes to countries should be made from within to improve them (that's what happened in Britain and other European countries, very gradually, over centuries). Masses of people leaving a country who would otherwise be in a position to effect change – however long this might take – will have a negative effect on their countries of origin.

    Resting on one's laurels and voting to stay in the hope that things will just carry on as they have in the past, when the EU didn't have to face any serious issues, is not the answer, in my view. I'm all for helping people financially in the areas to which they belong, and which have similar world views to them (as Britain has been doing more than any other European country), but as for letting them overrun Europe – no, I am not in favour of that at all.

    As to 'bendy bananas', another poster has answered your statement adequately. :cool:

    These are your thoughts on immigration, which will be shared by some I'm sure, but others will not be as considered.

    I provided no opinion on 'bendy bananas' - I meant this term as a generalisation for what some see as the bureaucratic meddling of Brussels.

    I have not yet decided if I'm voting in or out, I'm leaning in but that may change.

    My main concern is with the quality of debate and information that the decision for many will be based on.

    Look at scotland for example - anyone with an ounce of common sense knows scotland as an independent nation would be fooked economically, but there is still massive support for such independence.... based I can only assume on ignorance.

    My fear with the eu referendum is that decisions will be made on a basis of ignorance rather than from an informed position.

    For me there are good arguments on both sides currently. There have also been some pretty !!!! arguments for leaving which unfortunately achieve resonance with sections of the population - eg bendy bananas
    Left is never right but I always am.
  • leveller2911
    leveller2911 Posts: 8,061 Forumite
    edited 25 October 2015 at 3:08PM
    antrobus wrote: »
    So it does. But nevertheless, the import tariff on (for example) 'high quality beef and veal' interstat code 02012020 is 12.80 % + 176.80 EUR / 100 kg. Thus, if you are (say) a Scottish Angus beef producer currently exporting to France, it will matter which side of the EU tariff wall you find yourself.

    That may be so but there would be nothing to stop us slapping trade tarrifs on all cars imported from the EU so BMW's, Audi,Mercedes,Seat,Skoda etc etc . It works both ways and we import far more than we export and I just can't see the EU being so childish.

    The trade tarrifs we impose can be used to offest the extra cost that our buisnesses would see imposed on them by export tarrifs. I just can't see any gain from either side on this one.

    That's not really relevant. The point at issue is specifically agricultural tariffs. And even 'free trade' agreements between the EU and other nations tend to have specific rules regarding food.
    That may be true but we are discussing trade tarrifs so there is an element of scaremongering in your post.

    BTW I think there is too much scaremongering on both sides of the debate but overall I will be voting out.
  • Mistermeaner
    Mistermeaner Posts: 3,024 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts

    That may be so but there would be nothing to stop us slapping trade tarrifs on all cars imported from the EU so BMW's, Audi,Mercedes,Seat,Skoda etc etc . It works both ways and we import far more than we export and I just can't see the EU being so childish.

    The trade tarrifs we impose can be used to offest the extra cost that our buisnesses would see imposed on them by export tarrifs. I just can't see any gain from either side on this one.


    That may be true but we are discussing trade tarrifs so there is an element of scaremongering in your post.

    BTW I think there is too much scaremongering on both sides of the debate but overall I will be voting out.

    See post #1 for specifics on trade balance.
    Left is never right but I always am.
  • BobQ
    BobQ Posts: 11,181 Forumite
    Ninth Anniversary 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker

    The EU currently has over 50 free trade agreements with countries around the world to overcome trade tarrifs and is nagotiating more so I really don't see why we would be exempt from a tarrif free trade deal.

    Go back to 2009 and the UK charged trade tarrifs to non EU countries of around 1.76% tarrif so giving the impression that we would be paying sky high tarrifs is a red herring imo. This makes the EU as a customs block with tarrifs obsolete.

    The EU share of the worlds GDP is predicted to fall to around 22% by 2025 from 37% in the 1970's so why are we teathering ourselves to a failing club?.

    Now given the undeniable fact that farming within the EU is seen as a sacred cow by France we will never see a level playing field for subsidies. Farming will continue to receive far more money than its worth. Being in the EU we have managed to changed very little in the CAP and when/if Turkey was allowed in our influence will be even less and that is an undeniable fact.

    If we are in such a strong position to negotiate an advantageous trade deal with a group of nations we would have dumped, why can that strong position not be used to get a better deal while we are in the EU..?
    Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.
  • CLAPTON
    CLAPTON Posts: 41,865 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    danothy wrote: »
    So not only are you objecting to the EU on the basis of something that is no longer a problem, but you offer no evidence other than your say so that it was ever a problem? Given that you're a known liar, I would say that your say so doesn't say so.

    as you believe I am a 'known' liar then you must do your own research as you clearly won't believe mine
  • vivatifosi
    vivatifosi Posts: 18,746 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Mortgage-free Glee! PPI Party Pooper
    Generali wrote: »
    That is the equivalent of saying that Maccas should give people a free coffee while they read up on EU rules or indeed any other topic that someone deems important.

    I'm sure that the researchers would sell their research into free access if paid enough. IP is the same as any other sort of property really: almost always up for sale at the right price.:money:

    I've been thinking a lot about the £900 thing and what the answer is. It isn't an unreasonable price for B2B research, but what about getting info to the public? It isn't about obtaining an information advantage in this case, rather ensuring that people have the best information available to make their individual decision.

    I think that there could be a real market for a body like the Economist or FT to write special editions, with quality research, that the public could then buy at whatever would be a reasonable price point, maybe £5 a copy. The difficulty would be to seem impartial. But I would feel much happier being able to make a decision on my vote aimed with something like that. The unit cost for the research to the end customer is much lower, but obviously the multiples sold would be much higher.
    Please stay safe in the sun and learn the A-E of melanoma: A = asymmetry, B = irregular borders, C= different colours, D= diameter, larger than 6mm, E = evolving, is your mole changing? Most moles are not cancerous, any doubts, please check next time you visit your GP.
  • Sapphire
    Sapphire Posts: 4,269 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Debt-free and Proud!
    These are your thoughts on immigration, which will be shared by some I'm sure, but others will not be as considered.

    I believe your response is a very measured one (though not as measured as your posts debating the merits of excavating under your house in order to reach Australia).

    I think that one of the things that colour my view (and yes, fears) is that my forefathers right up to my grandparents and parents (from eastern Europe) endured years of hostile invasion by successive waves of people from different countries and regions, the latest of which, 60 years ago, was incredibly cruel and devastating. Although my siblings and I were born in Britain, we can see what a terrible effect the events of the Second World War had on my parents (PTSD, untreated), and consequently on us. That's why I view the illegal migrant ingress of Muslim people from the Middle East and Africa into Europe with extreme caution. It's a view that is shared with people in eastern European nations, and I fear that it is difficult to understand by some people who have not suffered invasions or their effects. I would not wish what these nations have suffered on Britain, and I worry that we may be sleepwalking our way into disaster.

    Help these people in their own areas, fine – but they should not be allowed to overwhelm Europe, which is what Frau Merkel and Junckers's actions are leading to.
  • leveller2911
    leveller2911 Posts: 8,061 Forumite
    edited 25 October 2015 at 4:27PM
    BobQ wrote: »

    If we are in such a strong position to negotiate an advantageous trade deal with a group of nations we would have dumped, why can that strong position not be used to get a better deal while we are in the EU..?

    Its a fair point but I don't think we have enough influence within the EU.Our voting influence accounts for less than 9% of the vote and if in the future more countries join it will be even less. Some people say we need to build alliances but the problem I see with that is the UK is one of the major financial contributors whereas most other states receive far more back than they pay in so I can't see us ever getting an agremment on the CAP for instance when countries like Poland receive huge amounts of CAP susbsidies. As I see it turkeys don't vote for Christmas and EU states won't form an alliance if it hits their [STRIKE]bribe[/STRIKE] subsidies.

    I just don't see many other EU states with the same needs as we do, most of them are poor and or very small economies and couldn't survive without the EU but we can. Most of the EU is run to the advantage of Germany and France and they openly flex their economic muscles when dealing with the small states. I am not against states getting together and co-operate ,possibly along the lines of the EFTA style but certainly not the EU or the Federalist road its going down.

    Lets not forget Germany/EU openly threatened the Eastern states with cutting their subsidies if they don't sign up to the EU migrant/refugee plan so my question to you would be:

    Do you want to be part of a group of nations that will have more and more integration and one whereby the bigger members threaten the smaller ones if they don't comply and one were we have less influence as it grows?..
  • wotsthat
    wotsthat Posts: 11,325 Forumite

    Its a fair point but I don't think we have enough influence within the EU.Our voting influence accounts for less than 9% of the vote and if in the future more countries join it will be even less. Some people say we need to build alliances but the problem I see with that is the UK is one of the major financial contributors whereas most other states receive far more back than they pay in so I can't see us ever getting an agremment on the CAP for instance when countries like Poland receive huge amounts of CAP susbsidies. As I see it turkeys don't vote for Christmas and EU states won't form an alliance if it hits their [STRIKE]bribe[/STRIKE] subsidies.

    I just don't see many other EU states with the same needs as we do, most of them are poor and or very small economies and couldn't survive without the EU but we can. Most of the EU is run to the advantage of Germany and France and they openly flex their economic muscles when dealing with the small states. I am not against states getting together and co-operate ,possibly along the lines of the EFTA style but certainly not the EU or the Federalist road its going down.

    Lets not forget Germany/EU openly threatened the Eastern states with cutting their subsidies if they don't sign up to the EU migrant/refugee plan so my question to you would be:

    Do you want to be part of a group of nations that will have more and more integration and one whereby the bigger members threaten the smaller ones if they don't comply and one were we have less influence as it grows?..

    The UK has little influence with 10% of MEP's but Germany rules with all of 13%.

    How does that work?
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