Britain and the EU

Conrad

antrobus wrote: »

Well, if press reports are to be believed, Poland has just voted for a right-wing Eurosceptic government, so perhaps they will.:)

Yes I've posted another thread that it's now about 5 or 6 Northern European nations that have recently voted in Euro sceptic parties.

BobQ

leveller2911 wrote: »

Business partnerships tend to be equel when both sides have equel financial interests. If I'm in a partnership and have a 70% stake I would expect to have more clout and I don't believe for one minute its different within the EU. Its just not gonna happen that Latvia will have the same influnence as France. In all honesty the smaller states see the EU as a cash cow in the first instance with the added bonus of freedom of movement.

Yes but if you have only 10% stake you have to work with other parties, seek consensus, build alliances and above all cooperate. Standing on the sidelines and shouting is not a tenable position. But I agree that if we want to stand on the sidelines and whine we ought to leave and take the consequences, that is an exodus of jobs as firms relocate to Paris, Frankfurt and Dublin.

Its blindingly obvious that the small states have been bought and paid for by the EU machine and you just can't see the huge elephant standing in front of you.

Poland is a good example. It now receives huge sums of EU money to bring the country up to date ,spending huge sums on airports built in areas that don't have enough people to make the airports viable, technology parks where there are few people . Its the biggest wealth distribution since the Marshal plan. Do you think Poland will say "no" the Junker or Merkal?.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-04-29/polish-300-billion-aid-package-hides-eu-expansion-flaws

The whole concept of the EU has been based on helping the development of less developed nations, that is what we joined. Do you not remember the EEC Regional Fund? I agree it is perfectly tenable to advocate UK leaving and objecting to inter nation subsidies, but its like joining a golf club and whinging that it plays golf and not badminton.

I believe we can have a better economy outside the EU. I wish people would just grow a pair and get some confidence in what we can do rather than what we can't do.

Maybe thats down to me having the confidence to run a business whereas many people like their nice comfy slippers of employment

.

I do not deny UK can build an economy outside of the EU. The question I would ask is why it has done such a poor job of building one in the EU. We have gone from a manufacturing nation to one that relies on service industries, importing energy and hosting global financial institutions who do not pay much tax in the UK. This did not happen because of the EU. I think people who want to exit are ignoring the fact that the EU is not stopping us from making our economy better.

You are not the only one who has built a business, but if your business is successful you will know that it needs leadership to make this happen. This government is going further than most to create a climate in which businesses can thrive: so why is it not happening? I do agree we need to have confidence in our own abilities as a nation but leaving the EU will not suddenly make everything better.

The Human Rights Act is way,way out of date and needs reform and when the political elite sitting in their ivory towers protected form the effects of the HRA they have no need to reform it so the political will is not there so a "Bill of Rights" can be better that what we have now. Again, you seem to lack the confidence of what we can do.Do you seriously believe that the UK would desend into some barbarick 15th Century cult. The UK is the oldest democracy in the world and you think we can't be trusted to respect human rights?.

The UK is already disrespecting human rights by contemplating repealing the European Charter. UK has been found guilty of breaching human rights on several occasions (eg Stop and Search) and our only defence is that we are not as bad as some others. While true, this does not make it right.

The irony is you say you care about the poor/working class whilst at the same time actively voting to keep a system that keeps people unskilled and poor.

Keeping people poor is a political decision, inside or out of the EU. The way you refer to the EU, you would think that Germany is governed by a socialist party.

So ,just because no one has left we shouldn't leave?. Someone had to be the first one to leave the Titanic when it hit the iceberg.

My point is that it is uncharted waters and we do not know how the EU will react to our departure or how globally based employers will respond.

Sapphire

Conrad wrote: »

BobQ wrote: »

Originally Posted by Sapphire

But this was how the EU was always intended to work the day we joined. That is why some UK roads in Scotland and Wales were improved. It is intended to facilitate trade with disadvantaged regions.

Please note that this was not 'Originally Posted by Sapphire', but by someone else.:p

By the way, I think that any roads that have been built in the EU are to the economic benefit of all the EU countries, since they help in faster communications by road and therefore assist trade. It's the political intrusions onto and bullying of smaller countries in the EU (such as trying to force them to take illegal migrants that they categorically do not want) that I find deeply objectionable.

Sapphire

I do not deny UK can build an economy outside of the EU. The question I would ask is why it has done such a poor job of building one in the EU. We have gone from a manufacturing nation to one that relies on service industries, importing energy and hosting global financial institutions who do not pay much tax in the UK. This did not happen because of the EU. I think people who want to exit are ignoring the fact that the EU is not stopping us from making our economy better.

I would believe in such statements by you if it weren't for the fact that the whole world is attempting to break into the UK. When it comes to the loss of manufacturing and other industries, a large part of that is due to the fact that Britain priced itself out of competition with other countries, because British workers demand higher wages than those in many other countries, and because there are generally fewer jobs in these industries due to advances in technology. We've become a very spoilt nation compared to how things were in even the recent past.

The UK is already disrespecting human rights by contemplating repealing the European Charter. UK has been found guilty of breaching human rights on several occasions (eg Stop and Search) and our only defence is that we are not as bad as some others. While true, this does not make it right.

For God's sake, this is the second time you've mentioned the UK 'breaching human rights'. Try living in much of the world outside Britain – then you'll see what 'breaching human rights' really means. I'd rather my 'human rights' were 'breached' than see another 9/11 or similar. If you hate this country so much, go and live somewhere else.

Keeping people poor is a political decision, inside or out of the EU.

Who is 'poor' in this country? No one, really. Again, if that was the case, why would the illegal migrants be so desperate to break into our country? Additionally, keeping many people relatively 'rich' involves using taxpayers' hard-earned money, which is not right. Moreover, I can guarantee you that the more migrants are allowed into Britain, the 'poorer' we will be, because migrants are prepared to accept far lower wages than indigenous Brits and will price out said Brits.

CLAPTON

BobQ wrote: »

The UK is already disrespecting human rights by contemplating repealing the European Charter. UK has been found guilty of breaching human rights on several occasions (eg Stop and Search) and our only defence is that we are not as bad as some others. While true, this does not make it right.

which idiots made carrying a knife or gun around, without being stopped until after use, a human right?

stop and search power should be decided by our elected government

antrobus

CLAPTON wrote: »

which idiots made carrying a knife or gun around, without being stopped until after use, a human right?

As far as I'm aware, there are no idiots who have ever made such a ruling.

CLAPTON wrote: »

...stop and search power should be decided by our elected government

You could say the same about anything.

N1AK

Generali wrote: »

I am led to believe that there are millions (literally) of Turks in Germany already. I think the Germans have plenty of experience of mass migration.

Certainly more than we do in recent history (since the heavy migration as the Empire disbanded) but that doesn't stop delusional people imagining otherwise!

N1AK

CLAPTON wrote: »

which idiots made carrying a knife or gun around, without being stopped until after use, a human right?

Nobody, and nobody credible would claim anyone had. Reforming Stop & Search is about stopping people like you from pushing for policies that harass members of minorities because they look like the kind of people who might be up to no good.

CLAPTON

N1AK wrote: »

Nobody, and nobody credible would claim anyone had. Reforming Stop & Search is about stopping people like you from pushing for policies that harass members of minorities because they look like the kind of people who might be up to no good.

I am arguing that stop and search decisions should be subject to our elected parliament and not unelected and unaccountable judges in Europe (or indeed the UK).

The one time I was personally knifed was by a white male person who I assumed was English : but you knew that of course.

BobQ

Sapphire wrote: »

I do not deny UK can build an economy outside of the EU. The question I would ask is why it has done such a poor job of building one in the EU. We have gone from a manufacturing nation to one that relies on service industries, importing energy and hosting global financial institutions who do not pay much tax in the UK. This did not happen because of the EU. I think people who want to exit are ignoring the fact that the EU is not stopping us from making our economy better.

I would believe in such statements by you if it weren't for the fact that the whole world is attempting to break into the UK. When it comes to the loss of manufacturing and other industries, a large part of that is due to the fact that Britain priced itself out of competition with other countries, because British workers demand higher wages than those in many other countries, and because there are generally fewer jobs in these industries due to advances in technology. We've become a very spoilt nation compared to how things were in even the recent past.

The UK is already disrespecting human rights by contemplating repealing the European Charter. UK has been found guilty of breaching human rights on several occasions (eg Stop and Search) and our only defence is that we are not as bad as some others. While true, this does not make it right.

For God's sake, this is the second time you've mentioned the UK 'breaching human rights'. Try living in much of the world outside Britain – then you'll see what 'breaching human rights' really means. I'd rather my 'human rights' were 'breached' than see another 9/11 or similar. If you hate this country so much, go and live somewhere else.

Keeping people poor is a political decision, inside or out of the EU.

Who is 'poor' in this country? No one, really. Again, if that was the case, why would the illegal migrants be so desperate to break into our country? Additionally, keeping many people relatively 'rich' involves using taxpayers' hard-earned money, which is not right. Moreover, I can guarantee you that the more migrants are allowed into Britain, the 'poorer' we will be, because migrants are prepared to accept far lower wages than indigenous Brits and will price out said Brits.

There is absolutely no need to be abusive. If you believe that people are not entitled to their opinions maybe you should consider a change of country.

Quoting what someone else says out of context does not help your argument.

The whole world is not attempting to break in to the UK (except in your little Englander imagination). The decline of manufacturing in the UK and the growth of service industries has had a negative affect on the UK whoever you care to blame. Germany has faced lots of challenges from automation too but has preserved its manufacturing industry. Where is ours? France has invested in low cost nuclear power while we have just destroyed our domestic energy capacity, driving the prices up, importing energy and destroying our steel industry in the process.

Poverty is a relative term and I was responding to Leveller's point that immigration and poverty are linked and part of the EU membership question. You seem to agree. But you seem very confused and have no solution apart from stopping immigration. The problem is not the immigrant workforce it is the lack of jobs that pay decent wages.