MSE News: 1.2m UK vehicles to be 'corrected' in Volkswagen emissions scandal

Johnmcl7

footyguy wrote: »

If preventing breathing and respiratory problems is not a matter of safety, I'm not sure what is.

All diesel engined vehicles do not emit the same level of toxins that affected VAG vehicles do. If they did, why is there all the fuss about just VAG vehicles, and why is it being reported so widely that they are planning to recall (and I use that word advisedly) so many vehicles???

Because in the US they have much tighter Nox emissions than here, even most EU6 cars don't meet the limit they were certified for:

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f12/nine-out-10-new-diesel-cars-exceed-eu-pollution-limits-7-times-report-finds-224289/

If the affected VW's were to be recalled as part of a mandatory safety recall, you'd need to recall pretty much every single vehicle on the road. This idea that some have suggested here that VW are filthy and all other cars are clean is simply not true, there is a growing problem with nox emissions but it's not down to VW fitting a defeat device on their engines.

John

Johnmcl7

footyguy wrote: »

Maximum NOx emissions on diesel engined vehicles were a requirement at EU4, and possibly before. Yes they may have been tightened up since, but they were part of EU4 compliance testing.

From what I have read, one of the little pieces of information VAG have disclosed is that their EU6 compliant vehicles are not involved in this problem.

Maximum nox emissions have been part of the EU spec for a while but they've not been in any way restrictive, it's only the EU6 spec that has started to make moves against Nox:

http://www.dieselcarmagazine.co.uk/features/euro-6-understanding-the-new-regulations/

The cars wouldn't need the defeat device to be within the Nox limit for EU5, the claim is the EU6 cars are unaffected but then most cars, not just VW are failing the EU6 Nox limits in reality.

Also the US EPA Nox limit is much tougher than the EU6 spec:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_violations#Emission_standards

The US limit is 0.043 g/km while the EU6 limit is 0.08 g/km

John

footyguy

Johnmcl7 wrote: »

Because in the US they have much tighter Nox emissions than here, even most EU6 cars don't meet the limit they were certified for:

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f12/nine-out-10-new-diesel-cars-exceed-eu-pollution-limits-7-times-report-finds-224289/

If the affected VW's were to be recalled as part of a mandatory safety recall, you'd need to recall pretty much every single vehicle on the road. This idea that some have suggested here that VW are filthy and all other cars are clean is simply not true, there is a growing problem with nox emissions but it's not down to VW fitting a defeat device on their engines.

John

I don't think I understand you, sorry.

I hope you are not suggesting that all other manufacturers have cheated in emissions testing like VAG have done on some of their models?
Because if you are, I hope you realise that major car companies have some very good legal teams behind them.
You see, in the wake of this VAG scandal, some of the major car companies have already categorically denied using a 'defeat device' that VAG have admitted to using in some of their vehicles, contrary to the test specification.

If you are simply saying that the test specification does not reflect real world driving conditions, then, if that is the intention of the test (and I'm not sure whether it is) that is surely a fault with the specification authors, not the car manufacturers that have had their vehicles tested in line with the specification and had them certified accordingly.

Let us be completely clear here. What VW have admitted to doing is cheating. They have used a 'defeat device' in order to obtain a pass of the test based on the recorded emissions, but the use of a 'defeat device' is specifically prohibited, and that is why they have been named & shamed, the boss has resigned, and possible legal/criminal action may ensue.

Johnmcl7

footyguy wrote: »

I don't think I understand you, sorry.

I hope you are not suggesting that all other manufacturers have cheated in emissions testing like VAG have done on some of their models?
Because if you are, I hope you realise that major car companies have some very good legal teams behind them.
You see, in the wake of this VAG scandal, some of the major car companies have already categorically denied using a 'defeat device' that VAG have admitted to using in some of their vehicles, contrary to the test specification.

If you are simply saying that the test specification does not reflect real world driving conditions, then, if that is the intention of the test (and I'm not sure whether it is) that is surely a fault with the specification authors, not the car manufacturers that have had their vehicles tested in line with the specification and had them certified accordingly.

Let us be completely clear here. What VW have admitted to doing is cheating. They have used a 'defeat device' in order to obtain a pass of the test based on the recorded emissions, but the use of a 'defeat device' is specifically prohibited, and that is why they have been named & shamed, the boss has resigned, and possible legal/criminal action may ensue.

You're claiming that VW have to recall their cars as part of a 'safety recall' because of the affect on public health, I was demonstrating that if that VW had to recall their cars for high nox emissions then everyone else would have to do the same.

VW used the defeat device to get very low nox emissions in testing due to the Californian emission laws being far, far tougher - the affected VW engines are EU5, it's only the EU6 engines which have the tougher Nox limits and even those are nowhere near as tight as the EPA limits. As has been pointed out and explained several times, it's not a safety issue as there is no requirement for the nox emissions to be that low and the CO2 emissions are in line with other manufacturers.

While I don't agree with what VW have done, some of the posts here that seem to believe VW cars are spewing out all these dirty emissions while other cars are clean is simply not true. The blame for that lies with the European government and to a degree the UK government who have pushed hard on CO2 emissions and for a long time completely ignored nox emissions. Plus largely ignoring the fact most European cars are not meeting limits, the US have forced action while here in the result of worrying high emissions from many manufacturers there's no planned action for years.

John

Norman_Castle

Johnmcl7 wrote: »

This idea that some have suggested here that VW are filthy and all other cars are clean is simply not true

Has anyone suggested that?.

Norman_Castle

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-more-carmakers-implicated-as-tests-reveal-pollution-levels-of-popular-a6674386.html

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/wide-range-of-cars-emit-more-pollution-in-real-driving-conditions-tests-show

roddydogs

When the car reaches 3 yrs & has an emissions test, wouldn't that reveal all?

bod1467

It would if it had one. As far as I'm aware the specific test to catch what this "scandal" is about doesn't exist for diesel cars in the MOT test.

PS - nice to see MSE are on the ball as usual, what with starting this discussion thread more than a week after a discussion thread had already been started in the forum.

Johnmcl7

Norman_Castle wrote: »

Has anyone suggested that?.

Yes, repeatedly in pretty much every vw thread about this. On this thread alone there's someone claiming vw should have to do a safety recall due to app the deaths they're causing due to their emissions as if they're much worse than rivals.

WellKnownSid

Johnmcl7 wrote: »

While I don't agree with what VW have done, some of the posts here that seem to believe VW cars are spewing out all these dirty emissions while other cars are clean is simply not true. The blame for that lies with the European government and to a degree the UK government who have pushed hard on CO2 emissions and for a long time completely ignored nox emissions. Plus largely ignoring the fact most European cars are not meeting limits, the US have forced action while here in the result of worrying high emissions from many manufacturers there's no planned action for years.
John

VW have admitted to cheating - but that doesn't mean there isn't blatant rule-bending going on too - in fact we know this to be true. Golden cars which have been tweaked to meet testing - supposedly representative of the production vehicle, not changing the parameters when there is a test, but still allowing for every possible 'assumption' to be applied.

This goes beyond inadequate testing specification, and down to the relationship that large employers have with Governments. When you're in an industry that directly employs millions of people - and indirectly employs countless more - your political life would be short-lived if you went against their wishes for an easy test.

Perhaps the scandal can be milked long-enough by politicians that change will finally get some traction.