MSE News: 1.2m UK vehicles to be 'corrected' in Volkswagen emissions scandal

andy1832

Any thoughts on how all this may affect the London Low Emission Zone (LEZ) Will owners of vehicles that are currently permitted suddenly find they are not?

Johnmcl7

C_Mababejive wrote: »

Once they have been "corrected" then HM Government may then correct the annual VED for these cars thus finally ending the lie of the clean diesel engine..

They can't correct the VED after as far as I'm aware and they've already stated they won't charge owners if there is a discrepancy in the results. Given how wildly different the tested and actual CO2 emissions are for all manufacturers, they'd have to change pretty much all the VED bands.

John

Johno100

Norman_Castle wrote: »

Diesel emissions cause breathing and respiratory problems. Nothing to do with "tree hugging".

As do all diesel engines, be they in taxi's, buses, HGV's and even trains. It doesn't mean that 'recalling' the affected VW group vehicles makes it a matter of safety as suggested by the poster I was responding to.

Johnmcl7

andy1832 wrote: »

Any thoughts on how all this may affect the London Low Emission Zone (LEZ) Will owners of vehicles that are currently permitted suddenly find they are not?

It depends if the CO2 results have been modified, the system was in place to reduce Nox emissions whereas for EU5 and the low emission zones have been focused purely on CO2 emissions. Due to inaccurate testing, the CO2 and NOX emissions from most manufacturers if not all is wildly inaccurate anyway so it's not just VW engines that are producing far more CO2 than they're supposed to. The EU6 rules place much tougher restrictions on Nox emissions but most EU6 cars are failing to meet that limit in the real world:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/14/nine-out-of-10-new-diesel-cars-in-breach-of-eu-pollution-rules-report-finds

In time it looks like there will be a change against diesel with diesel owners being charged extra for city centres rather than less.

John

Johnmcl7

Norman_Castle wrote: »

Are VWs generally in lower emission bands than similar vehicles from other makers?. If not and they've done this to lower the apparent emissions how have other manufacturers met the emission targets?.

The cheat device was to lower Nox emissions while in the UK, the VED bands and low emissions zones go by CO2 emissions. It's yet to be discovered if the cheat system was active for EU testing and if so whether it also lowered CO2 emissions.

At a quick glance, VW don't seem obviously lower than other manufacturers and they all seem to be producing much higher CO2 in reality compared to what they were certified for. As an example the VW Golf 1.6 TDI Bluemotion, Ford Focus 1.5TDCi and the Citroen DS3 1.6HDI all produce similar power outputs and economy and all slot into the A VED band with under 100 g/km CO2 emissions with the Golf the highest at 99 g/km.

John

Johnmcl7

Kite2010 wrote: »

I suspect my (£20 a year tax) 2011 Fabia TDi will be invited back to the dealership to be "fixed".

You should be able to check here:

http://master.skoda-auto.com/mini-apps/recall-actions

It's unclear at the moment whether they're still adding cars as some have said nothing was showing earlier in the day and now there is a recall showing.

John

footyguy

Johnmcl7 wrote: »

No, the problem is the affected VW engines don't have the adblue system (the VW name for urea). They claimed they could meet the tight Nox emissions requirement without fitting adblue to the engines which would save them money and make the cars more appealing as the adblue system and potential hassles can be offputting. Now it turns out the way they were passing the emissions limits was by having the car behave differently when testing.

In Europe the situation is different because the affected engines are certified to the EU5 spec which isn't that tough on Nox emissions and the cars wouldn't need the adblue system to pass whereas the Eu6 spec is much tougher on Nox emissions (the limit is less than half of the EU5 spec). Therefore the cars will likely still pass the EU5 Nox emissions test without the defeat device whereas in the US they won't meaning it's likely VW are going to have to run the cars with the same parameters while under testing (possibly leading to poorer fuel economy and/or lower performance) or fit an adblue system.

At the moment, it's not known what affect has been had on European vehicles where it's CO2 that's been the focus largely and not Nox until more recently with the lower Nox limit for EU6 vehicles. There's the added difficulty that it's been shown recently how inaccurate the testing is with most EU6 tested cars (not just VW) failing to meet the emissions limits in reality and also producing far higher CO2 than their original test showed. If the affected engines were EU6 then potentially there would be a much bigger issue (and there may still be) as those are the ones with the tighter nox requirements and if turns out VW have been cheating those and the cars can't meet the emissions requirements otherwise then that could be a big issue for owners. Right now, there's no suggestion that's the case.

John

You may well be correct. This situation is still very confusing at present, mainly becuuse of the lack of disclosure by VAG at this time (which is understandable bearing in mind the distinct possibilty of legal/criminal action against them/their employees)

But I didn't make my version up.
I think I first heard that version on Sky News.
I have found a similar story in the Daily Mail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3244005/Millions-hit-VW-s-10bn-green-test-fiddle-scandal-Questions-British-models-diesel-emissions-furore.html

And also the Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/09/22/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-explained_n_8177606.html

In view of the lack of admission by VAG, The New Scientist discusses various possibilities
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28240-how-did-volkswagen-cheat-in-tests-and-can-it-fix-affected-cars/

They summarise that as either reducing the NOx produced in actual combustion - something it seems VAG engineers cannot do - or treat the NOx produced before emitting it.

a) it is assumed EGR is turned off except in test mode, and turning it on constantly will seriously affect vehicle performance.
b) Increase absorption of NOx in the NOx trap - but this will require increased regeneration, resulting in adverse fuel consumption figures.
c) Inject AdBlue not just in test mode.

If you are correct that the problem only affects vehicles without AdBlue, then VAG appear to have a serious problem.
Performance will be adversely affected and/or fuel consumption will increase.
The other option would be to fit new hardware so that AdBlue is used, but this will be very expensive and time consuming ... and most people are saying the 'correction' will only be a software change.

But at the moment, I fear it is all speculation as VAG are not giving any details. Hopefully they will in future; at least they are going to have to declare which exact vehicles are affected which they have not done to date. (They say it could take another month before they provide details of vehicles affected)

footyguy

Johnmcl7 wrote: »

It depends if the CO2 results have been modified, the system was in place to reduce Nox emissions whereas for EU5 and the low emission zones have been focused purely on CO2 emissions. Due to inaccurate testing, the CO2 and NOX emissions from most manufacturers if not all is wildly inaccurate anyway so it's not just VW engines that are producing far more CO2 than they're supposed to. The EU6 rules place much tougher restrictions on Nox emissions but most EU6 cars are failing to meet that limit in the real world:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/14/nine-out-of-10-new-diesel-cars-in-breach-of-eu-pollution-rules-report-finds

In time it looks like there will be a change against diesel with diesel owners being charged extra for city centres rather than less.

John

Maximum NOx emissions on diesel engined vehicles were a requirement at EU4, and possibly before. Yes they may have been tightened up since, but they were part of EU4 compliance testing.

From what I have read, one of the little pieces of information VAG have disclosed is that their EU6 compliant vehicles are not involved in this problem.

footyguy

Johno100 wrote: »

As do all diesel engines, be they in taxi's, buses, HGV's and even trains. It doesn't mean that 'recalling' the affected VW group vehicles makes it a matter of safety as suggested by the poster I was responding to.

If preventing breathing and respiratory problems is not a matter of safety, I'm not sure what is.

All diesel engined vehicles do not emit the same level of toxins that affected VAG vehicles do. If they did, why is there all the fuss about just VAG vehicles, and why is it being reported so widely that they are planning to recall (and I use that word advisedly) so many vehicles???

Johnmcl7

You're right there's conflicting reports on this, going back to the original data there were three vehicles - a Jetta, a Passat and a BMW X5. Both the VW's failed but the BMW passed however I thought both the VW's lacked adblue but it seems that the Jetta didn't have one at all while the Passat did. The reason for the difference is weight apparently.

There is a lot of speculation why the Passat would fail but as you mentioned, it may be so that it used less fluid. Either way it does leave US owners in a mess particularly those with the smaller cars and no adblue system as it seems likely the only way they can meet the emissions standards is to have the adblue system retrofitted.

Given the much less strict approach to Nox in Europe and the fact that EU6 cars are mostly failing to meet the limit, I can't see this affecting European owners the same.

The speculation at the moment is that most of the EU5 engines will be recalled, Skoda already offer the ability to check if your car is affected by this recall so I doubt VW won't be far behind if they're not offering that information yet.

John