Corbynomics: A Dystopia

mrginge

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I didn't murder Jo Cox, I didn't commit any hate crimes, I don't believe in white supremacy and I don't believe in isolationism.

Listening to the left you'd think I was/did all of the above.

This is why the left is hated, and if there's no viable centrist alternative, because the left is now so hated, it seems the lesser of two evils to vote for the right in the USA, France, etc...

The concerns are not facile, which is why the left is losing, and Europe and the US are lurching to the right, because of sanctimonious attitudes like the one you just displayed.

I find it astonishing that you would say the rise of the right is a concern for society without actually asking "Why?"! When people are telling you why, you fob it off. And so the lurch to the right continues... People have had enough of "holier than thou" politics. Fashionable politics. I want empirical and pragmatic politics.

UKIP are far right, the tories are far right, labour plp are far right, most labour voters are far right. Tim Farron is probably slightly to the left of the BNP but is no doubt still a nazi.

standard tactics from these socialist morons. Utterly clueless on anything other than their discredited theoretical b0ll0cks.

Polarise and divide, that's all they've got. Nobody with any sense falls for it and that's why they are going to get massacred in a GE.

setmefree2

John McDonnell refuses to interfere in 'Hilary Benn deselection row'

Read more at: http://www.pocklingtonpost.co.uk/news/regional/john-mcdonnell-refuses-to-interfere-in-hilary-benn-deselection-row-1-8248553

http://www.pocklingtonpost.co.uk/news/regional/john-mcdonnell-refuses-to-interfere-in-hilary-benn-deselection-row-1-8248553

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/nov/20/john-mcdonnell-on-hilary-benn-we-cant-interfere-in-local-democracy-video

Moby

setmefree2 wrote: »

You've missed the point. These are the concerns of the liberal left not Tricky's concerns - the liberal left have lost the plot which is why voters are heading to the right. They have become beyond disillusioned.

The left has stopped listening to voters. Worse they have become The Establishment. Worse still they have stopped engaging in debate - they've got nothing - they stubbornly refuse to change course when every sign says turn: when it would be good policy to turn, when it would be overwhelmingly popular to turn, when the country wants them to turn, when it is fully in their power to steer in a different direction. The left they are not for turning.

They see themselves as the good guys but they avoid the real issues - they are much more comfortable talking about marriage equality than anything meaningful to do with change. Forthright on cultural issues (but all parties are these days) yet when confronted with matters of basic economics - not in the room. Why? Because the left have become contented partners in power. The class they care about are the liberal elite class not the working class, not regular folk. So where does this leave the working classes who now have a lack of any real political representation?

The left are supported by minorities, upper middle class white professional, the cultural elite and the young (when they can be bothered to vote) and have lost touch with the working classes. These left wing professional would bristle at being labeled snobs but that's what they are.

A political movement with the smallest sense of humility might look at Brexit and Trump and wonder why they are so out of touch. But when confronted with the suggestion that the metropolitan intelligentsia have gone marching of in the wrong direction their only instinct is to furiously question how the plebs could have possible got it so wrong and who led them astray.

Listen to Corbyn on immigration, miles away from voters...In a million years you will never get him to admit that the scale of immigration in the UK might be problematic. He will say he sympathies with those who have concerns in his ever so 'umble and soft tones, but then watch him try and turn and blame the evil tories for whipping up hate against migrants, for not upping the minimum wage (a pull factor to immigrants) and building more hospitals and schools (where's the money coming from - why the magic money tree).

How a once great party has debased itself. It has now become a party to make the professional classes feel good about themselves while their privileged life styles diverge widely from the great unwashed.

It has become grating and insufferable to hear the self proclaimed party of equality and opportunity bleat on about how progressive they are from their ivory towers.

Your ill informed rant just mirrors the usual rabble rousing editorials of the Sun and the Mail. Likewise the contributers who thank you are the usual like minded suspects. .....in a nutshell.....blame the immigrants! That was the energy behind Brexit and Trump's victory. Fair enough....we live in a democracy.....but at least be honest about it! That is hardly a 'debate' and the problem with this position is that it points out problems in society but offers no solutions. The people who voted for Trump will be disillusioned soon enough when they see his answers are reactionary and protectionist....and they will still be disempowered and bottom of the pile. Do you seriously think Trump and Farage care about the interests of the people you describe as 'working class', 'regular folk'. Aren't minorities 'regular folk'?....are only heterosexual white men 'regular folk'?

Farage and Trump are populists.....they know there are votes to be had in the politics of division. Hate, jealousy, a percieved unfairness are powerful drivers and immigrants provide the raw material! Bang on about the politics of identity and you are on a home run with your audience!

Corbyn is struggling on the issue of immigration....totally agree! That is a good thing! .....It is a huge complex issue which belies simplistic Trumped up solutions. The people you don't trust on this subject are people like Farage and Trump who say they they will build a wall.....or produce a poster of refugees, claiming them to be economic migrants. These people appeal to the bigotry and the hate in all of us. It would be so easy for Corbyn to say that Labour intends to reduce immigration....but he doesn't do so because he doesn't want to make false promises and I respect him for that.....(Cameron did and we all saw what happened there)! Many posters on this site are too bigoted to see that with free trade....has to come the free movement of peoples. Globalisation means that an energised young Polish man has taken advantage of the chance to put to use his skills to better his future in another country. My neighbours children are still living at home because unlike the young Polish man....they don't have the drive or wherewithall to move out of London to get somewhere to live! Is that the fault of the Polish man though? Also it is people like you who usually decry regulation and workers rights as blocks on the free market. You are supposed to be a capitalist! Do you seriously think we would have such numbers of immigrants coming to the UK if we had proper regulation of employment rights? It is employers wanting cheap labour to maximise their profits that have driven wages and conditions down.....I notice you and your ilk say nothing about that....probably because it does not fit in with the narrative of hate.....so much simpler isn't it! It is really unfettered capitalism which has betrayed the interests of the people you claim Labour has ignored!

Moby

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/nov/21/theresa-may-cbi-speech-signals-plan-to-put-workers-on-company-boards-being-watered-down-politics-live?page=with:block-5832cd2de4b0da4920d6ae58#block-5832cd2de4b0da4920d6ae58

I don't think the left behind workers have much to get excited about here. It's actually an insipid version of what Ed was saying.....but of course when he said it it made him a rabid Marxist!

Moby

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/21/how-do-we-fight-loudmouth-politics-authoritarianism-populism-paul-mason

'But there’s a big difference between today and the 1930s, and it becomes clear when you dig into YouGov’s stats. In Britain, the No 1 predictor of becoming an “authoritarian populist” is your age. Thirty-eight per cent of them are over 60; a further 21% aged between 50 and 60. Low educational achievement is another big predictor, though not as strong.'

'

Numerous journalists, myself included, have done enough realtime anthropology with the smalltown racist pensioner to understand: it is modernity they dislike, and the freedom that comes with it. And we cannot let it go.
At the centre of the fightback has to be a break with neoliberal economics. Raise wages, end job insecurity, build homes and, before you do any of it, promise all of it loudly.

Ho hum as I was saying.................!

CLAPTON

Moby wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/21/how-do-we-fight-loudmouth-politics-authoritarianism-populism-paul-mason


'

Ho hum as I was saying.................!

quoting Paul Mason as a fair minded commentator on the state of the UK, is comparable to quoting Thump as a fair minded commentotor of the state of the US.

antrobus

CLAPTON wrote: »

quoting Paul Mason as a fair minded commentator on the state of the UK, is comparable to quoting Thump as a fair minded commentotor of the state of the US.

Paul Mason is a former Trotskyist who has invented something called 'postcapitalism'.

But he likes Northern Soul so he can't be all that bad.:)

TrickyTree83

I was trying to find someone who had already made the argument I would like to make to you against the left and their current brand of politics. One that would imprint on you that I'm not far-right, anti-immigrant, racist or xenophobic, but that I value freedom of speech, I recognise that people who may come across this way have legitimate concerns that are just shouted down as being racist, xenophobic or bigoted. And that the left has moved in such a direction as to push these people into the arms of populism. The left will continue to lay blame on these people without taking a look in the mirror and realising that their identity politics has become toxic enough to make this pendulum swing to the right a reality.

In searching for someone making this argument I came across many who could be described as bias, or right wing propaganda by those of left leaning persuasion. However I came across - to my utter surprise - a Huffington Post article stating to the left, from the left media, about the state they're in. Which forecast the Trump election due to the inability of the left for introspection.

introspection

noun
the examination or observation of one's own mental and emotional processes.

When political correctness reaches the point in which people are — never mind being afraid to express opinion — afraid to report police memos, then we know sanity has been left behind. This sort of obfuscation is dangerous not just because it makes detection of the actual perpetrators more difficult, but also because it is driving otherwise reasonable people away from the left and all too often into the arms of right-wing populism.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bonny-brooks/cologne-sweden-assault-populism_b_8965118.html

It's my belief that this is what is happening in the world, I'd invite others on here to read the article and tell us what they think. Whilst the left may mean well in many circumstances it has been hijacked by the extremes and is now the cause of its own failures. Denying this to be the case will only hasten the demise and entrench far-right views because they will be the groups castigating the left for their actions. The centre will become scorched earth as people are pushed to the extremities.

Edit: Oh and lets not forget this particular example...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal

It should have never gotten as far as it did with people turning blind eyes for fear of left wing reprisal.

Or this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_sex_gang

Identity politics, it's vocabulary and political correctness must stop. A spade is a spade, it's about time we got back to that.

If the above two examples are not showing you that thought policing and speech policing has gone too far, then you're beyond redemption and you're part of the problem not the solution.

pop_gun

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I was trying to find someone who had already made the argument I would like to make to you against the left and their current brand of politics. One that would imprint on you that I'm not far-right, anti-immigrant, racist or xenophobic, but that I value freedom of speech, I recognise that people who may come across this way have legitimate concerns that are just shouted down as being racist, xenophobic or bigoted. And that the left has moved in such a direction as to push these people into the arms of populism. The left will continue to lay blame on these people without taking a look in the mirror and realising that their identity politics has become toxic enough to make this pendulum swing to the right a reality.

In searching for someone making this argument I came across many who could be described as bias, or right wing propaganda by those of left leaning persuasion. However I came across - to my utter surprise - a Huffington Post article stating to the left, from the left media, about the state they're in. Which forecast the Trump election due to the inability of the left for introspection.





http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bonny-brooks/cologne-sweden-assault-populism_b_8965118.html

It's my belief that this is what is happening in the world, I'd invite others on here to read the article and tell us what they think. Whilst the left may mean well in many circumstances it has been hijacked by the extremes and is now the cause of its own failures. Denying this to be the case will only hasten the demise and entrench far-right views because they will be the groups castigating the left for their actions. The centre will become scorched earth as people are pushed to the extremities.

Edit: Oh and lets not forget this particular example...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal

It should have never gotten as far as it did with people turning blind eyes for fear of left wing reprisal.

Or this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_sex_gang

Identity politics, it's vocabulary and political correctness must stop. A spade is a spade, it's about time we got back to that.

If the above two examples are not showing you that thought policing and speech policing has gone too far, then you're beyond redemption and you're part of the problem not the solution.

The perpetrators for those crimes are behind bars. You say that these crimes should've been detected sooner. I wonder if you feel the same way about the institutional child abuse inquiry. Which after it's fourth chair was suspended (prior to him resigning) seems as though it will never begin, let alone conclude it's investigation.
Is it only the crimes of minorities that interest you or all crimes?

It's clear to me your bias is informing your opinion.

TrickyTree83

pop_gun wrote: »

The perpetrators for those crimes are behind bars. You say that these crimes should've been detected sooner. I wonder if you feel the same way about the institutional child abuse inquiry. Which after it's fourth chair was suspended (prior to him resigning) seems as though it will never begin, let alone conclude it's investigation.
Is it only the crimes of minorities that interest you or all crimes?

It's clear to me your bias is informing your opinion.

All crimes of course. Where on earth did you get this idea that all crimes do not matter to me? I was merely talking about political correctness, identity politics, the left and it's hypocrisy and danger to society now it's become so arrogant to deny its own failings.

Regarding myself, nothing I said is clear to you or you wouldn't have had such a 'rebuttal' as suggesting that I don't care about the institutional child abuse inquiry, I never suggested anything of the sort. Yet you felt compelled to try to play the man and not the ball.

Instead of thinking you see clearly that I have a bias, which obviously I do not on this particular issue, do you not agree that political correctness played a role in the perpetrators of these crimes not being apprehended earlier? You'd be at odds with official reports if you disagreed. You'll also be at odds with what appears to be one of your own in the journalist from the Huffington Post. Who accurately describes how I feel about the left and also accurately predicts the rise of Trump and accurately demonstrates that turning a blind eye for fear of being branded a racist or xenophobe is absolutely correct in that it is wrong.

Everyone who lives in this country should expect all others to abide by the law, those who do not are punished, correctly so. But when the perception of prejudice gets in the way of justice there is a problem with society. The speech & thought police have gone too far, and it's been this way for far too long now.