Corbynomics: A Dystopia

TrickyTree83

Moby wrote: »

Stating the bleedin' obvious.....not happening though is it!

Ignoring my reply to this doen't change the fact that you are ignoring inbuilt institutional racism......you know the thing that got talked about as being in the police during the Stephen Lawrence inquiry! Did you even hear about this inquiry!

So Naive! You have to change the culture....that is the only way change happens. Prejudice was ingrained...and it was at the top....that's why no-one asked them to remove their badges!
There are areas of work especially in public service where people have to make decisions based on their judgement. The law doesn't apply.....like for instance working with people from minorities requires a cultural sensitivity and non judgemental approach. You have to assess people in their situation, in their world, especially in my job....I have to get people to trust me....to believe that i will not judge them.....otherwise I will be unable to effect change in behaviour. For instance.....telling someone that they can't use drugs because it's illegal is legally correct but it won't help me because this will end my engagement with them and my ability to gain trust and effect change!

So you think that splitting people up into groups by skin colour, religion, gender, sexuality, etc... is helping to foster relations between people, or is it giving them an excuse to identify as different and a victim? This is the logic of the left.

Being culturally sensitive, is that helping people to assimilate into the culture of this country, it's laws, customs and values? Telling bikers that they need to remove helmets in banks, but Burkas, no problem! Common sense has been lost. Rules differing depending on who you identify as. Madness.

Clamping down on speech that minority groups say they find offensive is OK? The way to defeat that type of prejudice is to discuss it and out it as stupid, not to ban it! That just drives prejudice underground and entrenches it until you end up with a mass of people that have awful views of the minorities for removing the liberties of others, see Britain First, EDL for examples of that. Yet ironically the minority groups did it with the assistance of "liberal" left, who are losing their voters in droves. The pendulum has swung too far, the weaponisation of prejudice legislation will end up breeding hate, if it hasn't already. I don't subscribe to the views of Britain First or the EDL, they're awful, but I don't subscribe to the views of the politically correct either.

The Stephen Lawrence inquiries are examples of what we should be doing to root out prejudice, we should not be engaging in any type of positive discrimination at all.

LHW99

There are areas of work especially in public service where people have to make decisions based on their judgement. The law doesn't apply.....like for instance working with people from minorities requires a cultural sensitivity and non judgemental approach.

I understand where you are coming from, but I do find there is a significant minority who conflate sensitivity with permitting anything that can be claimed as "part of the culture" I am thinking of areas such as forced marriage or FGM where people trying to bring protection in for the victims have been silenced by the argument "we shouldn't interfere as its part of their culture" Some things are against the "culture" of this country (and many others) as well as wrong, and when action is taken, it is generally the case that the perpetrators come from the minority group in question, and therefore some (though obviously not all) would argue that group was being "unfairly targeted", and IMHO more of those who have argued this, identify with the left-leaning parties.

TrickyTree83

LHW99 wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from, but I do find there is a significant minority who conflate sensitivity with permitting anything that can be claimed as "part of the culture" I am thinking of areas such as forced marriage or FGM where people trying to bring protection in for the victims have been silenced by the argument "we shouldn't interfere as its part of their culture" Some things are against the "culture" of this country (and many others) as well as wrong, and when action is taken, it is generally the case that the perpetrators come from the minority group in question, and therefore some (though obviously not all) would argue that group was being "unfairly targeted", and IMHO more of those who have argued this, identify with the left-leaning parties.

^ This.

I completely agree with this, and believe that whilst we are (mostly) a welcoming nation, we should expect all people in this land to abide by the laws of this land. So domestic violence in minority communities must not be tolerated just like, FGM, honour violence, homophobia, traditional dress that poses a public safety risk, marginalisation of other religious views, cultural patriarchy, etc...

The examples of covering it up in Rotherham, Derby, Cologne, and many others are the cracks in the argument for cultural sensitivity, otherwise known as political correctness. And the left is entirely to blame for this brand of censorship and doctrine.

TrickyTree83

Just leave this here as an example of what I'm getting at regarding the weaponisation of prejudice by the left and contributing to driving it underground and cementing prejudice in our society by not allowing discourse about it, and sometimes engaging in prejudice themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gSrgandHXY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tc6Cb3wHu8

http://metro.co.uk/2016/05/04/sadiq-khan-slammed-for-calling-moderate-muslim-groups-uncle-toms-5857705/

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/03/30/sadiq-khan-there-are-too-many-white-men-on-transport-for-lon

http://www.swlondoner.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Sadiq-Khan-refugees-welcome-978x735.jpg

I suppose some types of racism are acceptable these days, no?

Moby

CLAPTON wrote: »

are you denying Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford, Alyesbury, Bristol, Banbury etc?

What?.....I'm not at all denying these incidents of organised abuse of children took place!.....and the men involved have been dealt with....rightly so! Two wrongs don't make a right though do they Clapton. I'm not even denying that such incidents of abuse were not dealt with more quickly on occasion because of fear of challenging cultural differences....so what...that's been exposed, lessons learned etc......so now we go back to the much more ingrained and widespread issue of institutional racism so that we can have a better tomorrow!

Moby

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

So you think that splitting people up into groups by skin colour, religion, gender, sexuality, etc... is helping to foster relations between people, or is it giving them an excuse to identify as different and a victim? This is the logic of the left.

Straw man argument. I was talking about cultural sensitivity as being a good thing for social cohesion.

Being culturally sensitive, is that helping people to assimilate into the culture of this country, it's laws, customs and values? Telling bikers that they need to remove helmets in banks, but Burkas, no problem! Common sense has been lost. Rules differing depending on who you identify as. Madness.

You talk about cultural sensitivity and then talk about 'assimilation'.Wrong terminology! Try 'diversity' and accepting difference instead and you'll move a bit more into the 21st century;)

Clamping down on speech that minority groups say they find offensive is OK? The way to defeat that type of prejudice is to discuss it and out it as stupid, not to ban it! That just drives prejudice underground and entrenches it until you end up with a mass of people that have awful views of the minorities for removing the liberties of others, see Britain First, EDL for examples of that. Yet ironically the minority groups did it with the assistance of "liberal" left, who are losing their voters in droves. The pendulum has swung too far, the weaponisation of prejudice legislation will end up breeding hate, if it hasn't already. I don't subscribe to the views of Britain First or the EDL, they're awful, but I don't subscribe to the views of the politically correct either.

How far any society goes in defending minority rights to the cost of the majority is a huge issue. I generally think we have it about right in this country. France and the USA have had more problems in recent years and have suffered a backlash that we have avoided at present because our police etc have made big strides. The 'Prevent' strategy brought in by Labour to train people working with ethnic minorities to watch out for radicalisation is generally very successful!

The Stephen Lawrence inquiries are examples of what we should be doing to root out prejudice, we should not be engaging in any type of positive discrimination at all

Generally agreed but positive discrimination was a reaction against a society which is unequal.....at least be more aware of the main issue if you are going to assert that positive discrimination is not the answer.

Moby

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Just leave this here as an example of what I'm getting at regarding the weaponisation of prejudice by the left and contributing to driving it underground and cementing prejudice in our society by not allowing discourse about it, and sometimes engaging in prejudice themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gSrgandHXY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tc6Cb3wHu8

http://metro.co.uk/2016/05/04/sadiq-khan-slammed-for-calling-moderate-muslim-groups-uncle-toms-5857705/

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/03/30/sadiq-khan-there-are-too-many-white-men-on-transport-for-lon

http://www.swlondoner.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Sadiq-Khan-refugees-welcome-978x735.jpg

I suppose some types of racism are acceptable these days, no?

I looked at those clips....what a load of bilge! So individuals have been exposed saying prejudicial things....big deal....it's a huge extrapolation from that to say what you are saying about society generally. I could find far more links to put up about racism and EDL etc and say.....look this country is overun with racist supremacists! At least look for proper peer reviewed research.....not clips on YouTube or London rags. Your links may satisfy the attention span of a Posh Spice type but they doesn't stand up to proper intellectual scrutiny.

TrickyTree83

Moby wrote: »

Straw man argument. I was talking about cultural sensitivity as being a good thing for social cohesion.

You talk about cultural sensitivity and then talk about 'assimilation'.Wrong terminology! Try 'diversity' and accepting difference instead and you'll move a bit more into the 21st century;)


How far any society goes in defending minority rights to the cost of the majority is a huge issue. I generally think we have it about right in this country. France and the USA have had more problems in recent years and have suffered a backlash that we have avoided at present because our police etc have made big strides. The 'Prevent' strategy brought in by Labour to train people working with ethnic minorities to watch out for radicalisation is generally very successful!


Generally agreed but positive discrimination was a reaction against a society which is unequal.....at least be more aware of the main issue if you are going to assert that positive discrimination is not the answer.

Sorry, there's no arguement in there except telling me I'm wrong and that you and labour are correct without giving me any evidence that what you say about cultural sensitivity (political correctness) is making the difference you claim it is. Yet there's plenty of evidence that suggests it's gone too far. Not saying it's not needed but the enforcers and supporters of these ideas are now in the territory of following dogma, blindly. Assimilation is the correct terminology, it's not offensive or harsh, it's true. If these people wish to live here they must abide by our laws, value systems and culture. That is what would be expected of you anywhere else in the world except Europe. I wonder why...

TrickyTree83

Moby wrote: »

I looked at those clips....what a load of bilge! So individuals have been exposed saying prejudicial things....big deal....it's a huge extrapolation from that to say what you are saying about society generally. I could find far more links to put up about racism and EDL etc and say.....look this country is overun with racist supremacists! At least look for proper peer reviewed research.....not clips on YouTube or London rags. Your links may satisfy the attention span of a Posh Spice type but they doesn't stand up to proper intellectual scrutiny.

BECAUSE YOU LOT ARE DRIVING IT UNDERGROUND.

Honestly what is it that you don't get? Messing up the country by policing speech and thought has stopped people from arguing to change minds. Of course the EDL is on the rise. That's because of the thought and speech police. These people will talk amongst themselves, in private, and not engage in discourse with the rest of us.

Regarding the clips, really? The tolerant left being overtly racist and then telling white people they're bad doesn't strike you as a problem? The left has lost control and they appear blind to it. Abbott I'm sure you're aware is now in the shadow cabinet. Shocking.

I'm sat here trying to say that the left and the far right are both in denial because we've stupidly stifled free speech in this country. But politicians appear to be the political equivalent of teflon if they're on the left. The only thing that has happened to those 2 particular individuals I gave examples of - IS PROMOTION!

Please, you cannot preach that you hate all bigotry, racism and xenophobia when you cannot acknowledge, root out and bring judgement down on your own. Labour did it wrong, and part of the Great Repeal bill needs to be this idea of policing speech. Only violence should not be tolerated. All speech and thought should be given a platform, because that is how you defeat radical movements.

Here's a journal from the Australian Legal Institute:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjEwKmujMHQAhVHJMAKHSvwDs8QFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.austlii.edu.au%2Fau%2Fjournals%2FUNSWLJ%2F2005%2F55.txt%2Fcgi-bin%2Fdownload.cgi%2Fdownload%2Fau%2Fjournals%2FUNSWLJ%2F2005%2F55.rtf&usg=AFQjCNGh5LvOqjeECEin23AoKw-C0a1hDg&sig2=0gjv_9IwqL3QEtyw36MD9A&bvm=bv.139782543,d.d24&cad=rja

A quote from Professor Cantle

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/political-correctness-stifling-debate-over-segregation-in-our-towns-6580413.html

who he is

http://tedcantle.co.uk/about-me/

Hitchens talking about the same subject

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/freedom-of-speech/

CLAPTON

Moby wrote: »

What?.....I'm not at all denying these incidents of organised abuse of children took place!.....and the men involved have been dealt with....rightly so! Two wrongs don't make a right though do they Clapton. I'm not even denying that such incidents of abuse were not dealt with more quickly on occasion because of fear of challenging cultural differences....so what...that's been exposed, lessons learned etc......so now we go back to the much more ingrained and widespread issue of institutional racism so that we can have a better tomorrow!

I glad you recognise the reality of Rotherham etc although disappointed that you deflect the issue by bringing in racial discrimination and your post of

Originally Posted by Moby View Post
Very serious....there is a difference between reality and what passes for your warped view of reality

could be seem by sensible people as being in denial.