Corbynomics: A Dystopia

gadgetmind

BobQ wrote: »

I agree we do not need another Tory Party, but neither do we need a left wing party that is unelectable.

Agreed. In its current form, I really can't see what useful purpose the labour party serves. Perhaps splitting off the part that could form an effective opposition from the part that doesn't seem to have noticed the Berlin wall has come down is the best option?

mrginge

BobQ wrote: »

But you are still missing the fundamental point, it really does not matter if Labour Party membership reaches 5 million, they will still not win an election. People like me, it our comfortable middle class lives with a social conscience (and there are lots of us) will not vote for a party lead by Corbyn or Smith but we might vote for one lead by people like Cooper, Jarvis, Burnham or Benn.

You see Corbyn as some kind of evangelist saving the party. In reality he is the figurehead for the clique that is destroying it or at best marginalising it. While he is building Jerusalem, in the real world a centre left party will emerge from the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Right. They may not win but they will have more chance of doing so than Labour.

This is nothing new, The Militants condemned Labour to the wilderness. They made the same kind of speeches and watched on in opposition while Thatcher did her worst. It was that self indulgence that turned many people away from Labour for good.

Absolutely spot on.

seven-day-weekend

BobQ wrote: »

Rugged




But you are still missing the fundamental point, it really does not matter if Labour Party membership reaches 5 million, they will still not win an election. People like me, it our comfortable middle class lives with a social conscience (and there are lots of us) will not vote for a party lead by Corbyn or Smith but we might vote for one lead by people like Cooper, Jarvis, Burnham or Benn.

You see Corbyn as some kind of evangelist saving the party. In reality he is the figurehead for the clique that is destroying it or at best marginalising it. While he is building Jerusalem, in the real world a centre left party will emerge from the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Right. They may not win but they will have more chance of doing so than Labour.

This is nothing new, The Militants condemned Labour to the wilderness. They made the same kind of speeches and watched on in opposition while Thatcher did her worst. It was that self indulgence that turned many people away from Labour for good.

People like me, who found I couldn't support Labour any more under Foot's leadership. Corbyn is worse than Foot (he's not such a skilled orator, for a start). I did think Tony Blair meant I could vote Labour with a clear conscience, but only voted for him once because I realised I had been mistaken. Since then I have been 'floating', but have never voted Labour again and these days I vote Conservative.

There are thousands of people like me, and we are not going to be won back by Labour going ever further to the left. I wonder if we can be won back at all, I know I almost certainly will never vote Labour again.

TheNickster

CLAPTON wrote: »

although terrorism is never justified, you would reward it by holding talks immediately

That is a loaded statement.

Put it this way if having talks prevented a further twenty years of killing by both the IRA, UDF etc. then talking would have been worth it in my view.

"jaw jaw is better than war war" - you don't seem to think so.

CLAPTON

TheNickster wrote: »

That is a loaded statement.

Put it this way if having talks prevented a further twenty years of killing by both the IRA, UDF etc. then talking would have been worth it in my view.

"jaw jaw is better than war war" - you don't seem to think so.

even you know what you have written is silly

ruggedtoast

BobQ wrote: »

Rugged




But you are still missing the fundamental point, it really does not matter if Labour Party membership reaches 5 million, they will still not win an election. People like me, it our comfortable middle class lives with a social conscience (and there are lots of us) will not vote for a party lead by Corbyn or Smith but we might vote for one lead by people like Cooper, Jarvis, Burnham or Benn.

You see Corbyn as some kind of evangelist saving the party. In reality he is the figurehead for the clique that is destroying it or at best marginalising it. While he is building Jerusalem, in the real world a centre left party will emerge from the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Right. They may not win but they will have more chance of doing so than Labour.

This is nothing new, The Militants condemned Labour to the wilderness. They made the same kind of speeches and watched on in opposition while Thatcher did her worst. It was that self indulgence that turned many people away from Labour for good.

With the greatest of all possible respect, you just don't understand what is happening at all. And that is why the zeitgeist of this movement, and the fundamental shift in global political aspirations, is completely passing you by.

For years boomers have complacently derided Gen X and Millennials for not engaging with politics, and now you are about to be engulfed in a tidal wave of activism that will sweep away the very ground on which you stand.

Facile pontiifications on Corbyn's attributes are utterly irrelevant.

Jeremy Corbyn did not choose us and in a sense does not lead us.

We chose Jeremy Corbyn, and there are an awful lot more of us than you think there are.

So, enjoy your "comfortable middle class life" and the leaders who enable it for you. You might want to ask yourself why so many people have been left behind, because every day you wave your affluence in their faces you are poking a tiger in the eye.

mrginge

Sorry to tell you this, but Gen X have all grown up now. The realities of being an adult means they can see straight through the hard left wing ideological claptrap spouted by your lot.

An electoral massacre is on the cards. All sensible people can see it, but it probably needs to actually happen before we can get back to normal sensible politics.

[Deleted User]

mrginge wrote: »

Sorry to tell you this, but Gen X have all grown up now. The realities of being an adult means they can see straight through the hard left wing ideological claptrap spouted by your lot.

An electoral massacre is on the cards. All sensible people can see it, but it probably needs to actually happen before we can get back to normal sensible politics.

True enough.

The fans of the Dear Leader like Ruggedtoast remind me of the tale of the man who falls from a high window - he consoles himself with "so far so good, so far so good" on the way down, in total denial of the grim fate about to befall him.

Ok to stand without formal backing from MPs/MSPs? So far, so good.....:)
Backing from a huge membership surge? So far, so good.....:)
Wins against Owen Smith? So far, so good.......:)

Fights general election on a left wing manifesto? SPLAT! :eek:

"Poking a tiger in the eye"? Behave yourself. The Labour movement has been destroyed by the emasculation of the unions, the loss of the confidence of voters in Scotland and its former industrial heartlands and the simple fact that far more of the electorate seem far more financially aware than they were in the 1970s.

The idea that what's left of the Labour movement in the UK is somehow going to change the world's economic system and overthrow the new economics of the Internet and international trade is sweet, but frankly embarrassing.

Tiger? :rotfl:

WR

BobQ

ruggedtoast wrote: »

With the greatest of all possible respect, you just don't understand what is happening at all. And that is why the zeitgeist of this movement, and the fundamental shift in global political aspirations, is completely passing you by.

This "workers of the world unite" mantra is quite puerile. You ignore the electoral realities which mean that Corbyn will not win. There has never been a Labour Government elected without winning some of the centre ground.

For years boomers have complacently derided Gen X and Millennials for not engaging with politics, and now you are about to be engulfed in a tidal wave of activism that will sweep away the very ground on which you stand.

Not really, you may have enthused a couple of million young people to support the cause but you are at the same time alienating millions of ordinary people who will never support that cause.

Facile pontiifications on Corbyn's attributes are utterly irrelevant.

Jeremy Corbyn did not choose us and in a sense does not lead us.

We chose Jeremy Corbyn, and there are an awful lot more of us than you think there are.

Which rather confirms you are a party within a party, leaching on a weak leader.

So, enjoy your "comfortable middle class life" and the leaders who enable it for you. You might want to ask yourself why so many people have been left behind, because every day you wave your affluence in their faces you are poking a tiger in the eye.

You really do not understand. I actually believe in policies that help the "left behind", I have a comfortable life now but remember the days when I did not. But I also believe that you have no chance of having a Labour Party in power to deliver this change.

I remember the days when dispirited Labour Party workers in my family knocked on the doors of once marginal constituencies trying to explain why Labour was led by a man in a donkey jacket who was a front for the assembled mass of socialist workers, communists and marxists that comprised the Militant Tendency. These idealists also cared more about the cause than winning power.

The tragedy was that they too wanted to help those who had been "left behind". But it was these very people they let down by making Labour unelectable for over a decade.

I predict that at the next election Labour will win less than 50 seats with Corbyn and his fan club in charge.

ruggedtoast

BobQ wrote: »

This "workers of the world unite" mantra is quite puerile. You ignore the electoral realities which mean that Corbyn will not win. There has never been a Labour Government elected without winning some of the centre ground.



Not really, you may have enthused a couple of million young people to support the cause but you are at the same time alienating millions of ordinary people who will never support that cause.



Which rather confirms you are a party within a party, leaching on a weak leader.



You really do not understand. I actually believe in policies that help the "left behind", I have a comfortable life now but remember the days when I did not. But I also believe that you have no chance of having a Labour Party in power to deliver this change.

I remember the days when dispirited Labour Party workers in my family knocked on the doors of once marginal constituencies trying to explain why Labour was led by a man in a donkey jacket who was a front for the assembled mass of socialist workers, communists and marxists that comprised the Militant Tendency. These idealists also cared more about the cause than winning power.

The tragedy was that they too wanted to help those who had been "left behind". But it was these very people they let down by making Labour unelectable for over a decade.

I predict that at the next election Labour will win less than 50 seats with Corbyn and his fan club in charge.

You're so out of touch with the mood of the nation you may as well be on Mars.

You and your buddies have spent the last forty years pushing the electoral landscape of the UK so far to the right that the current Labour Party is indistinguishable from the Tory Party of the eighties.

You lot created Corbyn, and you are about to get a full dose.

I for one, am glad to have a front row seat.

:beer: