MSE News: Calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 to be clearer, but prices vary wildly

zagfles

Ian011 wrote: »

Every stage was reported in most of the national newspapers and all government consultations are available on the web. The proposed changes have also been discussed multiple times on various forums, including this one, and written about on various blogs.

So what percentage of the 20 million or so NGN users responded to Ofcom? Enough to make them sure the views of consumers were reflected?

What percentage of the industry responded?

From 1 July 2015 they will have to justify their Service Charge and openly declare it. No longer can they hide behind "calls cost X from a BT landline".

Already been dealt with. You think it will make it prices clearer, you seem to be in the minority.

BT charges 9.58p per minute for calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers.
BT's Access Charge will be 9.58p per minute for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

Sky charges 9.5p per minute for calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers.
Sky's Access Charge will be 9.5p per minute for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

Virgin Media charges 10.6p per minute for calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers.
Virgin Media's Access Charge will be 10.25p per minute for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

TalkTalk charges 11.5p per minute for calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers, and, surprisingly, their Access Charge will be only 5p per minute for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

Sorry, but that's a load of disingenuous bulls**t. Most people don't pay those prices, they have a call package that usually costs a few £ a month which includes unlimited calls, sometimes to landlines, sometimes to mobiles as well, and in some cases (eg TalkTalk) to 0845 & 0870 too.

But as from July, 084/087 numbers will be charged extra by the vast majority of telcos, even if people have a call package.

The mobile network that will have a 44p per minute Access Charge for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers currently charges 40p per minute for non-inclusive calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers and 20p per minute for calls to freephone numbers.

"Non-inclusive" again. Ignore the fact the vast majority of mobile calls are made with inclusive minutes or PAYG bundle rather than getting charged individually.

The scale of the rip-off remains consistent. Consumers are free to choose a provider that charges much less for all of these things.

I want a provider which treats 084/087 numbers exactly the same as 01/02/03 numbers except for the "service charge". So I can believe the "service charge" is on top of a "standard" call cost, which would normally be zero as part of a package/inclusive minutes. Any suggestions?

Ian011

zagfles wrote: »

Most people don't pay those prices, they have a call package that usually costs a few £ a month which includes unlimited calls, sometimes to landlines, sometimes to mobiles as well, and in some cases (e.g. TalkTalk) to 0845 & 0870 too.

In a previous post you referred to "standard rates", and those are they. Inclusive calls are "discounted rates".

TalkTalk has elected to end the deception inherent in inclusive 0845 and 0870 calls and from 1 July 2015 will apply identical rules to all 084, 087, 09 and 118 calls. They will be non-inclusive.

Perhaps this is why their Access Charge is significantly lower than the other landline providers?

Ofcom has already stated that the only range of non-geographic numbers that they expect to have call cost parity with 01 and 02 numbers, is the range starting 03.

Although the changes are advertised as improving the clarity of call costs, the clear message to many users of 084 and 087 numbers is that they should be using 034 or 037 numbers. Those are inclusive calls on landlines and on mobiles and that has been the case since 2007.

zagfles

Ian011 wrote: »

In a previous post you referred to "standard rates", and those are they. Inclusive calls are "discounted rates".

No they're not, "standard" means usual cost. The idea that the vast majority of numbers, ie the ones that qualify to be inclusive, are not the "standard" is laughable!

TalkTalk has elected to end the deception inherent in inclusive 0845 and 0870 calls and from 1 July 2015 will apply identical rules to all 084, 087, 09 and 118 calls. They will be non-inclusive.

This gets funnier and funnier! So TalkTalk were deceiving me by giving me inclusive 0845/0870 numbers were they? Now that they're starting to charge me, without reducing the cost of the inclusive package I'm on, I'm supposed to be grateful to the geniuses at Ofcom?

Well tough, I'm not. There seems to be nothing in this whole mess that benefits anyone who calls 084/087 numbers, the vast majority are going to pay significantly more from July.

People might save on their 09 calls to Madam Whiplash or getting their tarot cards read I guess. Maybe 09 numbers should be the "standard", then all other calls are a "discount" for which we should be grateful :rotfl:

Ian011

Just what are these 084 numbers that are going to cost significantly more? They are not customer service lines. They are not government departments or public services. They are not banks. They are not NHS services. They are not essential services. All of those things have migrated to 03 numbers which are inclusive calls on landlines and on mobiles. Usage of 084 and 087 numbers is now in rapid decline.

Part of the deception with 0845 numbers is that businesses using them get all the extra facilities for nothing but are told that callers do not pay anything extra. Someone must be paying for the call handling and call forwarding facilities, non-geographic providers don't run their services for nothing. In fact, callers do pay extra and that fact and the amount will have to be declared as the Service Charge. Where calls are inclusive, that extra charge is spread across all customers of that network pushing up everyone's bill. Where calls to 0845 numbers are inclusive the charges are not transparent.

You have to ask why BT Retail wants to include calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers but does not include 0844 or 0871 and why BT will continue to include 0845 and 0870 numbers after 1 July 2015 when their Service Charges have massively increased to align with those for 0844 and 0871 numbers.

Once you realise that BT Business hosts a large proportion of the high volume 0845 and 0870 numbers things might fall into place. On BT hosted 0845 number ranges the payment to the benefit of the called party and their provider (BT Business) is increasing from 2p per minute to 5p per minute on 1 July 2015.

BT wants to convince businesses everywhere to use 0845 numbers. They want to convince businesses that these are cheap calls. Part of the 'proof' is that these calls are inclusive from BT landlines. They have got away with it for the last six years. From 1 July 2015, declaration of the Service Charge reveals the truth. And BT has some brass neck in thinking the deception can continue unnoticed.

TalkTalk has no interest in trying to convince TalkTalk customers that BT hosted 0845 numbers are cheap calls, especially when for the majority of calls made to 0845 numbers, TalkTalk has to pay 5p per minute to BT Business. TalkTalk would be insane to pay out this money without collecting it from the caller that made the call.

BT should, by now, have realised the game was up. Apparently not! It remains to be seen whether Sky and Virgin continue to promote BT's business of selling 0845 numbers to businesses or whether they follow TalkTalk and introduce fully transparent pricing.


Upon removal of inclusive calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers from call packages, there is no inherent reason for the package price to reduce. There are other factors at play.

The undeclared termination rate for 0870 numbers is currently about 0.5p per minute, soon to be replaced by declared Service Charges of up to 13p per minute. In recent years, many of these users have moved to 03 numbers, also with a 0.5p per minute termination charge.

The undeclared enhanced termination rate for 0845 numbers is about 1.6p per minute. Over the last two years, many of these users have moved to 03 numbers. These include HMRC, DWP, thousands of customer service lines and most banks. While the 03 termination rate is less than the 0845 rate, there's another factor to take into account.

Tens of thousands of customer service and other lines have vacated 0844 numbers in the last year and a half. Landline providers (other than BT) made 2p to 5p per minute out of call origination to these numbers. Mobile operators made 20p to 30p per minute or more from call origination to these numbers. Many of these users have migrated to 03 numbers (with termination rates around 0.5p per minute).

Given that call volumes to 03 numbers have probably increased more than four fold in the last two years it's surprising that package prices haven't increased a little bit more than they have in that time.

Low termination rates are the key to deals with inclusive calls. The termination rate for calls to 01 and 02 numbers is around 0.21p per minute. For 03 calls, it's about 0.56p per minute. A thousand minutes of daytime, weekday calls per month to these numbers does not exceed the package price paid by the caller.

The termination rate for calls to mobile numbers is 0.68p per minute. Before 1 May 2015 it was 0.84p per minute. These figures straddle the boundary where inclusive calls to mobile numbers become viable from landlines. Some providers have already taken that leap. Others will follow. By April 2017, the termination rate for calls to mobile numbers will be 0.51p per minute. That's slightly less than the current termination rate for calls to 03 numbers.

All these figures are miles away from the Service Charges of up to 7p per minute for 084 numbers and up to 13p per minute for 087 numbers that will be in force after 1 July 2015.

Swipe

Ian011 wrote: »

Just what are these 084 numbers that are going to cost significantly more? They are not customer service lines. They are not government departments or public services. They are not banks. They are not NHS services. They are not essential services. All of those things have migrated to 03 numbers which are inclusive calls on landlines and on mobiles. Usage of 084 and 087 numbers is now in rapid decline.

Many insurance companies have customer service lines and claims departments using 084 numbers

zagfles

Ian011 wrote: »

Just what are these 084 numbers that are going to cost significantly more? They are not customer service lines. They are not government departments or public services. They are not banks. They are not NHS services. They are not essential services. All of those things have migrated to 03 numbers which are inclusive calls on landlines and on mobiles. Usage of 084 and 087 numbers is now in rapid decline.

You want examples?

British airways:

http://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/help-and-contacts/contact-us
New bookings: 0844 number.
Flight status: 0844 number
Minicom for the hearing impaired!! 0845 number

National express:
http://www.nationalexpress.com/home.aspx
Only number on the home page is an 0871 number.
And they charge extra for phone bookings. A "service charge" isn't going to put them off, is it, if they already specifically charge more for phone bookings.

Eurocamp:
http://www.eurocamp.co.uk
0844 number. Advertised as 1p/min from a BT landline. Now will be about 10 times the cost from a BT landline.

DFDS:
http://www.dfdsseaways.co.uk/customer-service/contact-us
Page is headed Customer Services: yet 0871 numbers

Ryanair:
http://www.ryanair.com/ie/questions/where-are-you-calling-from/
New bookings & general queries: 0871 number

Irish ferries:
http://www.irishferries.com/uk-en/contact-us/
0871 number for bookings and customer support

Manchester airport lost luggage lines:
http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/help-and-advice/lost-luggage/
Mostly 0844 & 0871 numbers.

Virgin holidays:
http://www.virginholidays.co.uk/contact-us
0844 numbers

Telestunt (callthrough):
http://www.telestunt.co.uk/accessnumbers.php
Loads of 0844 numbers advertised at 1p/min on BT.

I'm bored now. Nearly all the travel/transport companies I checked use 084/087 numbers.

Part of the deception with 0845 numbers is that businesses using them get all the extra facilities for nothing but are told that callers do not pay anything extra. Someone must be paying for the call handling and call forwarding facilities, non-geographic providers don't run their services for nothing. In fact, callers do pay extra and that fact and the amount will have to be declared as the Service Charge. Where calls are inclusive, that extra charge is spread across all customers of that network pushing up everyone's bill. Where calls to 0845 numbers are inclusive the charges are not transparent.

You keep banging on about this but nobody cares. There is massive cross subsidy in tariffs. Mobile operators have to pay to terminate calls on other mobile operators' networks, yet they tend to include x-net mobile calls the same as on-net or landline.

The bottom line is this puts prices up. TalkTalk have removed 0845/0870 from inclusive tariffs but haven't reduced their package costs. Is that supposed to be a win for customers? You're seriously deluded if you think so.

Ian011

Swipe wrote: »

Many insurance companies have customer service lines and claims departments using 084 numbers

Not for much longer.

The FCA will shortly publish regulation requiring financial services to use 01, 02, 03 and 080 numbers thus mirroring the regulation that has been in place for retailers, traders and passenger transport companies since 13 June 2014.

zagfles

Ian011 wrote: »

Not for much longer.

The FCA will shortly publish regulation requiring financial services to use 01, 02, 03 and 080 numbers thus mirroring the regulation that has been in place for retailers, traders and passenger transport companies since 13 June 2014.

:rotfl:See above

zagfles

Ian011 wrote: »

Low termination rates are the key to deals with inclusive calls. The termination rate for calls to 01 and 02 numbers is around 0.21p per minute. For 03 calls, it's about 0.56p per minute. A thousand minutes of daytime, weekday calls per month to these numbers does not exceed the package price paid by the caller.

The termination rate for calls to mobile numbers is 0.68p per minute. Before 1 May 2015 it was 0.84p per minute. These figures straddle the boundary where inclusive calls to mobile numbers become viable from landlines. Some providers have already taken that leap. Others will follow. By April 2017, the termination rate for calls to mobile numbers will be 0.51p per minute. That's slightly less than the current termination rate for calls to 03 numbers.

All these figures are miles away from the Service Charges of up to 7p per minute for 084 numbers and up to 13p per minute for 087 numbers that will be in force after 1 July 2015.

So tell us, what is the termination rate for 084/087 numbers over and above the service charge? I'd wager it's similar to 03 numbers. Is that right? Or am I wrong?

If so, why isn't the "access charge" to NGN numbers included in call packages/inclusive minutes? Why didn't Ofcom mandate it as they did with 03 numbers?

poppasmurf_bewdley

As usual, when Ofcom introduce any regulation, it's as clear as mud and not to the benefit of the user.

From what I have seen, this latest change is to the benefit of the phone companies, not the private consumer. How can going from free inclusive calls (including to 0845/0870) to paying access charges, etc, for calls to 0845/0870 be an improvement?

Just like when Ofcom decided Sky couldn't have the rights to all Premier league matches, so consumers finished up having to pay for two lots of subscriptions to watch what the had previously only had to pay one subscription for.

Regarding calls to 0845/0844/0870. I shall continue as I have done in the past and refuse to call any of them. If a company has a business model which includes such covert means of making money, I do not want to deal with them.