MSE News: Calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 to be clearer, but prices vary wildly

Ian011

victor2 wrote: »

The whole issue of 084 and 087 numbers is a mess and doesn't show any signs of improving.

As a result of the Consumer Contracts Regulation 2013, which came into force on 13 June 2014, tens of thousands of retailers, traders and passenger transport companies no longer use 084 or 087 numbers for their post sales helplines. The majority now use 03 numbers. Some use 080 numbers.

The FCA will shortly publish similar regulation for the financial sector. Ahead of this, most banks have already swapped their 0845 lines over to the matching 0345 number.

victor2 wrote: »

If I do have no choice but to call an 0845 number, such as a government body, ...

As a result of Cabinet Office guidance published in December 2013, most government departments and other public services, including local authorities, have swapped their 0845 lines over to new 0300 or 0345 numbers.

Work is still ongoing, but usage of 0845 numbers by public services will have been almost eliminated by July 2015.

victor2 wrote: »

The few that say "it's just the same as a local call" get put right most succinctly!

Both Ofcom and ASA issued a note about this in 2005, but have largely been ignored. Anyone claiming either 'local rate' or 'national rate' for an 084 or 087 number should be reported to ASA, especially so after 1 July 2015.

zagfles

victor2 wrote: »

The whole issue of 084 and 087 numbers is a mess and doesn't show any signs of improving.

They've made it far worse. We'll go from adverts which say
"calls cost 2p/min from a BT landline, other operators may vary, mobiles will be considerably more",
to "service charge 1p/min plus your phone company's access charge", with presumably no warning that it could cost 45p/min from a mobile!!

zagfles

Ian011 wrote: »

If they are not receiving the benefit as cash, they receive it as a discount off the call-handling and forwarding services provided by the non-geographic number provider, as a discount off their bill for outgoing calls, or as a discount off some other services provided.

Nobody cares. They care about how much the call costs, not how much of the call price is divided up between the various parties.

Ian011

zagfles wrote: »

They've made it far worse. We'll go from adverts which say
"calls cost 2p/min from a BT landline, other operators may vary, mobiles will be considerably more",
to "service charge 1p/min plus your phone company's access charge", with presumably no warning that it could cost 45p/min from a mobile!!

While that call will cost more from a mobile, the current warning gives no clue as to how much more. Depending on which mobile provider you use, that call could cost anything from 5p to 45p per minute and there's no easy way to find out without looking through complicated price lists for each network.

Under the new system, every landline and mobile provider is required to inform their customers before 1 July 2015 how much the Access Charge for calls to numbers starting 084, 087, 090, 091, 098 and 118 will be. They are also required to display it in their price lists on the same page and with equal prominence as the call prices for numbers starting 01, 02, 03, 070, 071-075 and 077-079. They are also required to state it prominently on bills.

Previously it was very difficult to look up the price of calls to 084, 087 and 09 numbers, especially from landlines, as the list of price bandings ran to more than a hundred pages on each network. The new system replaces all of that with one figure per tariff which you add to the advertised Service Charge.

zagfles

Ian011 wrote: »

Every landline and mobile provider is required to inform their customers before 1 July 2015 how much the Access Charge for calls to numbers starting 084, 087, 090, 091, 098 and 118 will be. They are also required to display it in their price lists on the same page and with equal prominence as the call prices for numbers starting 01, 02, 03, 070, 071-075 and 077-079. They are also required to state it prominently on bills.

Previously it was very difficult to look up the price of calls to 084, 087 and 09 numbers, especially from landlines, as the list of price bandings ran to more than a hundred pages on each network. The new system replaces all of that with one figure per tariff which you add to the advertised Service Charge.

Well when people even now still refer to 0845 as "local rate " and 0870 as "national rate" despite decades of being told otherwise, do you really think they'll know what their network's "access charge" is when they phone a travel company 6 months later to book a holiday and see "service charge 1p/min plus your phone company's access charge"?

In that context the "access charge" just sounds like a nominal add on which puts the price up a bit, like "plus VAT", I doubt people will expect it to inflate the cost of the call by 4400% !

Even the name of it is stupid. Access charge implies a one-off charge, like an admission charge, not something you have to pay per minute. So they might remember somewhere in the back of their mind an access charge of 40 something p, but not that it's per minute!

This is a wet dream for the telcos, paricularly the mobiles. Now that they're heavily restricted by the EU in how they can rip off customers with roaming etc, they've now found a new way. No more "...mobiles will cost considerably more..." in adverts which encourages people to use landlines, now just a vague reference to an access charge.

Swipe

I can see saynoto0870 doing very well out of it and good luck to them.

victor2

zagfles wrote: »

Even the name of it is stupid. Access charge implies a one-off charge, like an admission charge, not something you have to pay per minute. So they might remember somewhere in the back of their mind an access charge of 40 something p, but not that it's per minute!

Totally agree. It sounds like the "connection cost", which is indeed a single charge for the privilege of being connected.

Ian011

The new system of call charges was first discussed in December 2010 and there has been at least three consultations on this matter. There was plenty of time to raise objections or propose a better scheme. Mobile operators originally objected to making calls to 080 numbers free from mobile phones.

The final regulations were published in December 2013 with 18 months for implementation, including discussion between nearly 200 operators and agreement on the common Service Charge price points, communication of Service Charges to tens of thousands of service providers, a consultation on amending the PhonepayPlus Code of Practice and another on amending the associated Guidance, a consultation on amending the Broadcast Code and various other work including communicating the changes to the public. We are now in the final 30 days of that four and a half year process.

The prospect of having to declare a Service Charge has already seen almost the entire banking sector change from 0845 to 0345 numbers. This trend will continue in other sectors and for sales lines. Regulation imposed on post sales helplines for retailers, traders and passenger transport companies in June 2014 has already shifted most of them to 03 numbers. Likewise, following Cabinet Office guidance published in December 2013, most public services now use 03 numbers. Clear Call Rates for Everyone is the final step in a much bigger plan.

Currently, some providers treat 0845 numbers the same as 03 numbers, others treat them the same as 0870 numbers and others treat them the same as 0844 or 0871 numbers. Some providers treat 0870 numbers the same as 03 numbers, others treat them the same as 0845 numbers and others treat them the same as 0844 or 0871 numbers. There are plenty of examples where callers pay much more than they thought they would.

Most of these variations will be removed on 1 July 2015 and a consistent tariff structure will be applied equally to all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers: a single, heavily-advertised Access Charge communicated by your landline or mobile provider and a single Service Charge specific to, and stated immediately adjacent to, the number you are calling. This tariff structure will work in exactly the same way as text messages sent to mobile shortcodes: "messages cost £2 each plus the cost of one standard rate message (at whatever rate your provider charges)". One 'standard rate message' can cost anywhere from 2p to 18p depending on which mobile provider you use. That system has already been in place for nearly a decade.

It looks like Access Charges from landlines will vary between 5p and 11p per minute and from mobiles will generally vary between 8p and 30p per minute, with EE way ahead at 44p per minute, depending on the provider chosen. Publicising the Access Charge in this way will give consumers a clear choice.

It must be noted that calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers vary from 3p to 45p per minute depending on which mobile provider you use. It should be no surprise that there is a huge variation in the Access Charges.

The one glaring complication that will remain after 1 July is that BT will let some of their customers make calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers accruing Service Charges of up to £130 and will then spread those charges across the bills of all BT customers rather than billing the customer that made the calls: that customer will pay a maximum of £7.50 for calls made.

Likewise, EE will let some of their customers make calls to 084 and 087 numbers accruing Service Charges of up to £39 and will then spread those charges across the bills of all EE customers rather than billing the customer that made the calls: that customer will pay only the first £3 of the charges.

If you're a customer of one of those providers and you never call 084 or 087 numbers you will still be paying part of the Service Charges accrued by other customers that do call those numbers.

zagfles

Ian011 wrote: »

The new system of call charges was first discussed in December 2010 and there has been at least three consultations on this matter. There was plenty of time to raise objections or propose a better scheme.

How many people use NGN numbers? Maybe 20 million, at a guess. How many responses did Ofcom get from those 20 million? How many of them even knew there was a consultation going on?

It's not a "consultation" if the vast majority of people affected aren't even aware of the consultation!

Regulation imposed on post sales helplines for retailers, traders and passenger transport companies in June 2014 has already shifted most of them to 03 numbers.

I've had to phone several transport/travel companies in the last few weeks arranging my holiday. All of them, without exception, advertised 084/087 numbers as their contact number. I had to make extensive use of saynoto0870.

Currently, some providers treat 0845 numbers the same as 03 numbers, others treat them the same as 0870 numbers and others treat them the same as 0844 or 0871 numbers. Some providers treat 0870 numbers the same as 03 numbers, others treat them the same as 0845 numbers and others treat them the same as 0844 or 0871 numbers. There are plenty of examples where callers pay much more than they thought they would.

There'll be even more soon.

Most of these variations will be removed on 1 July 2015 and a consistent tariff structure will be applied equally to all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers: a single, heavily-advertised Access Charge communicated by your landline or mobile provider and a single Service Charge specific to, and stated immediately adjacent to, the number you are calling. This tariff structure will work in exactly the same way as text messages sent to mobile shortcodes: "messages cost £2 each plus the cost of one standard rate message (at whatever rate your provider charges)". That system has already been in place for nearly a decade.

It's not the same though is it? 084/087 calls won't cost x amount plus your standard call charge, will it? It will cost x amount plus a vastly inflated "access charge" which is much higher than the "standard" call charge.

The one glaring complication is that BT will let some of their customers make calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers accruing Service Charges of up to £130 and will then spread those charges across the bills of all BT customers rather than billing the customer that made the calls: that customer will pay a maximum of £7.50 for calls made.

Likewise, EE will let some of their customers make calls to 084 and 087 numbers accruing Service Charges of up to £39 and will then spread those charges across the bills of all EE customers rather than billing the customer that made the calls: that customer will pay only the first £3 of the charges.

If you're a customer of one of those providers and you never call 084 or 087 numbers you will still be paying part of the Service Charges accrued by other customers that do call those numbers.

And if you make a point of never calling 084/087 numbers from a mobile, you'll be getting cross subsidy from the mugs who do, since there's no way on earth it costs even a tiny fraction of the rip-off 44p/min some of them intend charging for "access" to 084/087 numbers.

Ian011

zagfles wrote: »

How many of them even knew there was a consultation going on?
It's not a "consultation" if the vast majority of people affected aren't even aware of the consultation!

Every stage was reported in most of the national newspapers and all government consultations are available on the web. The proposed changes have also been discussed multiple times on various forums, including this one, and written about on various blogs.

zagfles wrote: »

I've had to phone several transport/travel companies in the last few weeks arranging my holiday. All of them, without exception, advertised 084/087 numbers as their contact number.

From 1 July 2015 they will have to justify their Service Charge and openly declare it. No longer can they hide behind "calls cost X from a BT landline".

zagfles wrote: »

084/087 calls won't cost x amount plus your standard call charge, will it? It will cost x amount plus a vastly inflated "access charge" which is much higher than the "standard" call charge.

BT charges 9.58p per minute for calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers.
BT's Access Charge will be 9.58p per minute for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

Sky charges 9.5p per minute for calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers.
Sky's Access Charge will be 9.5p per minute for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

Virgin Media charges 10.6p per minute for calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers.
Virgin Media's Access Charge will be 10.25p per minute for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

TalkTalk charges 11.5p per minute for calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers, and, surprisingly, their Access Charge will be only 5p per minute for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

zagfles wrote: »

... there's no way on earth it costs even a tiny fraction of the rip-off 44p/min some of them intend charging for "access" to 084/087 numbers.

The mobile network that will have a 44p per minute Access Charge for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers currently charges 40p per minute for non-inclusive calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers and 20p per minute for calls to freephone numbers.

The scale of the rip-off remains consistent. Consumers are free to choose a provider that charges much less for all of these things.

Another mobile provider currently charges 8p per minute for calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers and their Access Charge for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers will also be 8p per minute.