Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

The comment is also completely backwards, I'm not saying PHEV's will fail because I own Tesla shares, I own Tesla shares because PHEV's are failing.


Going back a post, I asked how the trajectory can be changed, and it occurs to me that it could be done by bringing in sweeping legislation to force the supply of 'electrified' vehicles much sooner (leading to vast PHEV production), and perhaps some sort of subsidy to help cover the cost to buyers.

The benefits of this would be enormous, as a potentially, faster way of shifting more miles onto leccy, but again, it would be a massive move, and also a half-measures move, so perhaps government intervention should remain focused on BEV's and encouraging battery production investment.

And also, with the economics swinging in favour of BEV's, it might even be a losing battle (to force PHEV's) if BEV costs continue to fall. [Lot of guesswork and speculation in there.]

It's not a half measure it's a 98% measure

And that is if we pretend the manufacturer of batteries is perfectly clean
If you take battery manufacture into account these 98% electric hybrids with 1/4th sized batteries would be cleaner in every way Vs their 100% 4x as heavy battery pack twins

The hybrids I describe don't exist But they will
The hybrids of today and yesteryear were full petrol cars with assist electric and battery motors
What I am describing are full BEV platforms with assist generators


What will make these plug in Hybrids (think of them as pure BEVs not hybrids as they don't have a full petrol engine setup just s generator) possible is

100 mile range 25KWh BEV + generator
1: new chemistries which allow 0-100% charge discharge without damaging the capacity too much
I suspect most people would set to 90% max charge and will seldom go towards sub 10% only if they Do more than 80 miles that day and they can set the generator to come on at 10% charge if the battery pack doesn't like going below that.

2. Existing high end batteries now have e sufficient charge discharge rates so a 25KWh battery won't be a slug it will just about be acceptable 10-11 seconds for 0-60mph

1961Nick

GreatApe wrote: »

Just to confirm the cost difference between a standard range plus and a long range Tesla model 3 works out to £330/KWh

That's not really a fair comparison as the LR model includes awd & a premium interior ... plus a few more toys.

joefizz

Lies, damn lies and statistics...
Heres a few for you...
PHEV sales have fallen partly due to availability, real world testing means not being tested with full battery all the time so are nowhere near the low CO2 level for grants, so some manufacturers have withdrawn many models or restricted availability until they either sort it out or just scrap the idea completely.
Changing the way they are subsidised/taxed will change this. Charge tax on actual driven battery miles which can be measured at service/MOT. Self employed income tax is done in retrospect...



The few of my friends who have EVs have free charging at work and dont need to charge at home. With the NI mix for CO2 they dont meet the CO2 grant level either.
In fact unless you use your own renewables here in NI, no EV is below the grant level...
A lot of tech companies provide free/subsidised charging at work. This wont last long.


Theres still a lot of this to play out and ultimately those who own EVs (of any description) should be taxed properly (which is coming). Those of us who generate our own electricity should obviously pay less ;-) Although I can see them adding VAT/road tax to our own 'free' electricity just to cover all the bases, that should cause some wailing and gnashing of teeth!



Some countries and think tanks coming up with interesting ways to tax cars going forward, from the usual real world CO2 to miles to weight (heavier cars, more damage on roads) and/or a combination of a number of these.
Im personally lobbying for a tax per driver which would save me taxing 3 cars but I dont think they are going to drop their revenue stream just for me.

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

That's not really a fair comparison as the LR model includes awd & a premium interior ... plus a few more toys.

I was talking about the long range rear wheel motor version not the dual motor performance which costs even more. But let's be generous and say instead of £330/KWh cost with some additional falls in battery manufacturing costs go to £250/KWh

A full range EV with 80KWh would cost £20,000 for battery pack weighing 500kg
A low range EV with 25KWh would cost £6,250 for battery pack weighing 156kg

What would a single speed generator cost and weigh?
I'd suggest £1,000 and about 100kg including fuel tank plus 5 gallons
Of petrol adding another 18kg weight

A low range EV with 25KWh battery would therefore cost £7,250 and weigh 274kg and have 400 mile range compared to the £20,000 and 500kg and 320 mile of the high range EV

Some people would still prefer to purchase the longer range BEV and pay the £12,750 premium
But for most people the small battery plug generator and 225kg weight saving would be more affordable and 98% of the miles would be electric. In fact over a typical lifetime of 15 years and 150,000 miles the generator version night only burn 200kg of petrol which is preferable to manufacturing 225kg of energy intensive and pollution intensive battery packs

ABrass

Given now there's two threads for BEV PHEV chat, why are we still posting about it here?

zeupater

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Unless I'm missing something here, what GA is describing is a range extender PHEV like the Chevy Volt (Vauxhall Ampera E), BMW I3 Rx, the new London Taxi, etc etc..

So I'm not sure how 'nothing like this exists'.

A poster on the EV thread who had a BMW I3 Rx, and seems to do about 50k miles pa, changed to the battery only BMW I3 on renewal as they'd used the Rx so little. They now have a Kona (I think).

Hi

Well, I certainly have problems with the statement too ... the Ampera, when we had one for an extended test drive some years back, operated as an EV (as in all motive power supplied by the electric motor) with an optimised ICE range extender as opposed to an ICEV with electric power assistance & energy recovery as is typical in hybrid vehicles from the likes of Toyota etc.

Don't worry too much though, the last thing we want to see is GA spending half of the next week running yet another face saving exercise in an attempt to own & rewrite history ... maybe the narrative would run from 'nothing like this exists' to 'I'll have to invent a solution', eventually culminating in 'I never said that, look, they've been around for a decade so you're wrong, wrong ... wrong' ...

Anyway, don't you just love the recent realignment of expertise on the forum ... it seems that there's a real move away from experience, technicalities & logic to simple repetition and volume of unsupported opinion ...

... Vocally own the present through volume & frequency, rewrite the past through repetition & deflection, control the future through smoke & mirrors ... pretty standard approach really, just that so many don't seem to recognise the pattern!

HTH
Z

1961Nick

GreatApe wrote: »

I was talking about the long range rear wheel motor version not the dual motor performance which costs even more. But let's be generous and say instead of £330/KWh cost with some additional falls in battery manufacturing costs go to £250/KWh

From the Tesla UK website:

Standard range plus, 50kWh, rwd: £38,500

Long range, 75kWh, premium interior, awd: £47,000

So the difference is £8500 or £340 for each additional kWh ... but how much of that is due to the awd & higher specification?

FYI, BMW would charge £3500 - £4000 for the awd & higher spec on a 4 series GC. That would make it a maximum of £200/kWh for the extra range.

Hexane

GreatApe wrote: »

What would a single speed generator cost and weigh? I'd suggest £1,000

I'd suggest £5,000 because car companies are in this to make money. You really think they'd offer an option that triples or quadruples the range of your car, for only a tiny increase in price?

JKenH

Lotus designed a range extender - was this ever put into commercial use?

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1034976_let-the-range-extender-wars-begin-lotus-unveils-tiny-engine

JKenH

Another one from 2016.

http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/design-engineering-news/low-cost-range-extender-for-electric-vehicles-unveiled-at-lcv-2016/145705/