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Brexit

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  • BobQ
    BobQ Posts: 11,181 Forumite
    Ninth Anniversary 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 25 May 2015 at 8:16PM
    CLAPTON wrote: »
    the BoE disagrees with you about low pay and immigration: presumably that's because Carney is 'barking'

    Overcrowding in schools and long waiting list for NHS obviously has nothing to do with demand: everyone knows that.

    High London / SE houses prices has nothing to do with demand either : rules of economics have been suspended due to prejudice and dogma.

    Clapton, I partly agree with the above!

    What I said was " In many people's minds ......" these things are true. What I was trying to say was that there are a lot of intellectually challenged people out there who actually believe these things to be true. UKIP's appeal was based on immigration being our biggest problem and leaving the EU the solution. But there are many others who thought about voting UKIP for such reasons, or just believe that the EU is responsible for lack of housing, jobs, indeed anything that they want something to blame for.
    Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.
  • BobQ
    BobQ Posts: 11,181 Forumite
    Ninth Anniversary 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    ...and for contrast---I'll be voting to leave
    Why?.............

    The EU is just one huge scam into which we put a huge amount of money and out of which we get the odd titbit along with umpteen regulations of which none of the rest bother about enforcing.

    France is the worst and I refuse under any circumstance to go to the country and I am not alone.
    Frankly I'd never have stopped bombing them
    I simply hate the EU.

    Gen, I give you an example of the type of "out" voters that are out there, qualified, willing and able to vote. I have to assume he is not mad of course.
    Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.
  • Thrugelmir
    Thrugelmir Posts: 89,546 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Sapphire wrote: »
    I don't understand all the accusations about people being 'racist'. Mainland Europeans are generally of the same race as those who will be voting in the referendum, so there is no actual 'racism' involved.

    The term might apply to many people who come here from outside the EU, but not to fellow ethnic Europeans.

    Confused with nationalism perhaps. Of which there's plenty. Scotland, Basques and the French spring to mind. When it suits people, the whole concept of the EU is overruled by self interest. To be workable, the culture has to change.
  • bigheadxx
    bigheadxx Posts: 3,047 Forumite
    Generali wrote: »
    I'd be amazed if Quit! get 45% except on an extremely low turnout.

    UKIP got high 20s% in the Euros(???). I don't see out getting much more than that. Maybe a third of votes.

    Chances of Stay! winning as is must be something like 10-1 on. The party that has scored the largest proportion of votes that I can think of since 1979 on a quit the EEC platform was Labour in 1983 who got 27.6% of the vote.

    There are a few people who want to leave the EU and they are really passionate about it. Most people are 'soft ins'. They aren't that fussed but will go with the status quo because it just works.


    You must be joking!! The SNP has polled mid twenties for decades yet 45% voted to leave the UK. That referendum was a pre-cursor for this EU vote.

    There is plenty of media hype, General debate and so on to sway minds over the next one or two years. However, far as I can see, the end game is EU exit.

    Nick Clegg confirmed what I posted many moons ago, the UK will be Europe's biggest economy. Nothing to do with growth or productivity, simple numbers and demographics. Britain's population is growing, Germany's is falling.

    The whole point in Britain joining was to contain Germany. From the Berlin Wall to the Euro, that has been achieved. The rest is down to demographics. Britain is Europe's dominant military power and will soon be is biggest economic powers. It has the greatest soft power of probably any other country and has a sphere of influence beyond Europe.

    No one can afford to ignore a powerful Britain on the doorstep of Europe. In or out, much of how it works will by necessity be dictated by us. Europe will still want to sell us it's goods and as Europe's biggest market we will be the one that everyone wants to tap.

    Immigration is a complete side show on this too. Nobody will stop people coming here for as long as we need to grow the population.
  • Sapphire
    Sapphire Posts: 4,269 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Debt-free and Proud!
    Ohhhh..... you still think racism is defined by skin colour?

    How quaint.:)

    What nonsense. 'Racism' certainly is defined by differences in race, not nationality, so being anti-EU because you don't want an immigration free for all from Europe is not generally 'racist'.

    I know that inserting the argument that people are 'racist' if they want to change arrangements with the EU, or opt out of it completely, is convenient for your 'arguments' and vested interest in seeing house prices rise ever further, but it's not a good argument. Many people do not want a further increase in the population because of the strain this is putting on infrastructure, for instance the NHS. I saw this at first hand recently, when my father had to stay in hospital after a stroke (in London), and the place was packed with patients from abroad, including from Africa and the European continent. I feel it is wrong for people to come to this country as health tourists, and to be given very expensive treatment that has to be paid for by British taxpayers, despite having contributed nothing to the economy.
  • Generali
    Generali Posts: 36,411 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Sapphire wrote: »
    What nonsense. 'Racism' certainly is defined by differences in race, not nationality,

    Under the Section 9.1 of the Equality Act 2010, race is defined as being:

    - colour
    - nationality
    - ethnic or national origins

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/9

    So under the law you are wrong.
  • Moby
    Moby Posts: 3,917 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 26 May 2015 at 7:28AM
    Cameron really is deluded if he thinks he is going to get any significant concessions:-
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/25/germany-france-eurozone-integration-no-lisbon-treaty-change-david-cameron

    The bottom line is the referendum is pointless navel gazing and of course the 'Yes' vote will win and we will stay in. Rightly so of course....but please Cameron get this thing over with asap and why can't 16-17 year olds vote by the way!

    Problem for Cameron is what is he going to be able to claim he has gained in concession? He clearly wants to stay in regardless but how does he appease the deluded little Englanders and headbangers as clearly illustrated above? He will clearly not be offered anything approaching a treaty change!
  • Generali
    Generali Posts: 36,411 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    In the original referendum to decide whether to remain or leave the EEC the vote was about 6:4 to remain in. I'd expect that margin again.

    That means 50% more vote stay than go. Like the Scottish Referendum it sounds tighter than it is. The Scottish referendum really was a huge No win. About 20% more voted No than Yes. I also can't imagine that Cameron would be dumb enough to let the Stay! voted be phrased in the negative. The Yes! side probably starts with a few %age points just for Behavioural Reasons.
  • HAMISH_MCTAVISH
    HAMISH_MCTAVISH Posts: 28,592 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Generali wrote: »
    Under the Section 9.1 of the Equality Act 2010, race is defined as being:

    - colour
    - nationality
    - ethnic or national origins

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/9

    So under the law you are wrong.

    Indeed.

    Racism under the law refers to nationality and national origin as much as it does skin colour, and it's been this way for many years.
    “The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.

    Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”

    -- President John F. Kennedy”
  • Generali
    Generali Posts: 36,411 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Indeed.

    Racism under the law refers to nationality and national origin as much as it does skin colour, and it's been this way for many years.

    Yup. Also things like Sikhism and Judaism count as 'races' for the law. I believe it was the same for the old Race Relations Act too.
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