Brexit

CLAPTON

antrobus wrote: »

The EU has free trade. That's the point of the EU.

No, the EU doesn't have free trade with the rest of the world: it imposes tariffs on the rest of the world.
If I understand you correctly, then this is bad of Europe and bad for the UK.

Why then do we stay?

Would the Uk not be better off having free trade with the whole world?

ruggedtoast

I think some people think that we are physically going to detach ourselves from Europe and float off into the Atlantic.

We are still going to have to deal with Europe every single day if we vote ourselves out. At a vastly diminished point of influence.

CLAPTON

ruggedtoast wrote: »

I think some people think that we are physically going to detach ourselves from Europe and float off into the Atlantic.

We are still going to have to deal with Europe every single day if we vote ourselves out. At a vastly diminished point of influence.

one wonders, how the other 250 odd states in the world, survive without being part of the EU. (no racism intended)

geographically we are indeed detached from the European land mass, and are in the Atlantic.

but never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

DandelionPatrol

Tromking wrote: »

I'm not sure when the final judgment is due, but I can't but think that an 'unhelpful' decision by the ECHR re. the De Meneses case might put a tin hat on the European experiment for many in the UK.

Granted, there are some misinformed souls around who seem to think that DeMenezes deserved to be shot because he 'ran away' from police [who were in plain clothes] - although as I understand it, he did not run away.

Some, including an ex armed copper I know, seem to think he deserved it for not being here legally - although Jack Straw conceded he was. But what a sad state of affairs that people can think the shooting justified or acceptable on the grounds that DeMenezes was not here legally.

If we go out of the EU on the basis of an ECHR ruling which offends such sloppy, ignorant and nasty thinking, I cannot help thinking that the EU will be better for it.

CLAPTON

DandelionPatrol wrote: »

Granted, there are some misinformed souls around who seem to think that DeMenezes deserved to be shot because he 'ran away' from police [who were in plain clothes] - although as I understand it, he did not run away.

Some, including an ex armed copper I know, seem to think he deserved it for not being here legally - although Jack Straw conceded he was. But what a sad state of affairs that people can think the shooting justified or acceptable on the grounds that DeMenezes was not here legally.

If we go out of the EU on the basis of an ECHR ruling which offends such sloppy, ignorant and nasty thinking, I cannot help thinking that the EU will be better for it.

there are very very few misinformed souls that believe that nonsense.

it is truely awful that there are so many misinformed souls that that believe that there are other people that believe that nonsense.

But sadly there are indeed a load of idiots in the world that believe any stupidity.

Name the ex-armed copper.

DandelionPatrol

CLAPTON wrote: »

there are very very few misinformed souls that believe that nonsense.

it is truely awful that there are so many misinformed souls that that believe that there are other people that believe that nonsense.

But sadly there are indeed a load of idiots in the world that believe any stupidity.

Name the ex-armed copper.

There are a few who believe it, but I work with some. No, I am not going to name the ex copper, I am just relieved that he no longer carries a gun in the name of the state.

Generali

CLAPTON wrote: »

Would the Uk not be better off having free trade with the whole world?

Yes it would but that isn't an option available.

The options are:

1. Stay in the EU
2. Leave the EU

IMHO, trade is good. Riccardo explained why comparative advantage means that every country gains from free trade and specialisation.

Staying in the EU means freer trade. That makes staying in the EU A Good Thing from the POV of having freer trade.

If the UK could have free trade with the whole world by leaving the EU then that would be a great idea but that's a highly unlikely outcome.

CLAPTON

Generali wrote: »

Yes it would but that isn't an option available.

The options are:

1. Stay in the EU
2. Leave the EU

IMHO, trade is good. Riccardo explained why comparative advantage means that every country gains from free trade and specialisation.

Staying in the EU means freer trade. That makes staying in the EU A Good Thing from the POV of having freer trade.

If the UK could have free trade with the whole world by leaving the EU then that would be a great idea but that's a highly unlikely outcome.

clearly there are more than two options

ricardos explanation has fallen on deaf ears in every virtually country in the world.

The UK could choose to have zero tariff entry barriers for all products and services from all countries : would we be better off than by staying the EU?

Tromking

DandelionPatrol wrote: »

Granted, there are some misinformed souls around who seem to think that DeMenezes deserved to be shot because he 'ran away' from police [who were in plain clothes] - although as I understand it, he did not run away.

Some, including an ex armed copper I know, seem to think he deserved it for not being here legally - although Jack Straw conceded he was. But what a sad state of affairs that people can think the shooting justified or acceptable on the grounds that DeMenezes was not here legally.

If we go out of the EU on the basis of an ECHR ruling which offends such sloppy, ignorant and nasty thinking, I cannot help thinking that the EU will be better for it.

There is a more nuanced viewpoint as regards the tragic death of this man. Speaking personally it would be a travesty of justice if the ECHR ruled in favour of the family in this case. We need to remember that this country was being attacked at the time and I recall, as may others the febrile atmosphere the Met were expected to work in. Mistakes were made and the family were compensated, I see no mileage in hanging individuals out to dry I'm afraid.

DandelionPatrol

Tromking wrote: »

There is a more nuanced viewpoint as regards the tragic death of this man. Speaking personally it would be a travesty of justice if the ECHR ruled in favour of the family in this case. We need to remember that this country was being attacked at the time and I recall, as may others the febrile atmosphere the Met were expected to work in. Mistakes were made and the family were compensated, I see no mileage in hanging individuals out to dry I'm afraid.

It was not being attacked by DeMenezes or his family.

The Met were convicted of H&S breaches, so it is not as if there were no case to answer. With the current case in the ECHR, who knows what the outcome will be. In effect, your position that a ruling in favour of the family would be a travesty is literally pre judice.

If I had said before the inquest on DeMenezes that an open verdict would be a travesty, that too would be pre judice on my part. In the event, I think that the open verdict is a travesty, because the jury was denied the verdict of an unlawful killing. For me, the open verdict carries a lot less weight than if was arrived at with the jury being given the option of an unlawful killing verdict.

So, in the ECHR case, I could accept a ruling either way, provided the process was good. I don't think that it is reasonable before the case to be keyed up to say that a particular verdict would be a reason for rejecting the ECHR or indeed the EU.