advise on infared please

System

matelodave wrote: »

It's unlikely that your place will have an EPC better than D, E or even F unless it was very recently built, which I suspect it wasn't - they wouldn't be replacing the heating if it was.

I don't know what your E7 rates are but based on your usage say around 8000 night units and 2000 day units = 10,000 units total (which sounds quite low) you do the sums using your own E7 tariff then see what it would cost on a single rate tariff.

If I do the sums for where I live (East Anglia) just swapping 10,000kwh from E7 (8000n/2000d) about £800 to a single rate about £1150 would cost me £350 extra a year. So you'd have to reduce your consumption by 3000 kwh/year to break even by going onto a single rate tariff.

Be careful because they've got a calculator which I'm sure will be brought out to demonstrate how much less you'll use.

I found out on last week my flat EPC is a C

Richie-from-the-Boro

I said to you twice in earlier threads, get it in writing and get a solicitor to check the 'four corners of the contract'. Get your solicitor to make a new contract in writing with the housing association that you can at any time, without financial loss, pull out of the infra trial and have a brand new water & heat Dimplex Quantum system installed and your home decorated and made good. Best of luck on your choice.

System

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

I said to you twice in earlier threads, get it in writing and get a solicitor to check the 'four corners of the contract'. Get your solicitor to make a new contract in writing with the housing association that you can at any time, without financial loss, pull out of the infra trial and have a brand new water & heat Dimplex Quantum system installed and your home decorated and made good. Best of luck on your choice.

The housing is still waiting for the company to get back with all the official figures n stuff mate. I would love new quantum heaters but the only way i would get those is if i had the infrared installed and it was costing more, i cant just ask for new quantum :-(

Do you know if i could get the new quantum on a upgrade or green deal thing. i would be able to get a free boiler if i had a house.

Cheers mate

fishybusiness

Makes interesting reading whichever side of the fence you sit

http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/technicalpaper22.pdf

Richie-from-the-Boro

fishybusiness wrote: »

Makes interesting reading whichever side of the fence you sit

http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/technicalpaper22.pdf

An interesting report, I'll dissect it later, but a quick flick reveals. The whole report has many hundreds of occurrences of the word comfort, not one instance of defining the word comfort. A thermostat setting of 18 oC @ 24 hour running with a setback setting of 16 oC still reveals that this ethereal 'felt comfort' is best achieved @ 21 oC.

So if the customer says I'm uncomfortable / less comfortable below 21 oC why other than input costs of achieving that 21 oC is the trial applied @ 18 oC. If a similar group size sample .1. in the exact same building of 21 oC was compared and costed at 18 oC in similar group size sample .2., that would be an objective even handed trial outcome.

fishybusiness

It's difficult isn't it, on the one hand the reported subjective feeling of comfort, on the other the analysis of the data collected.

I was interested in this report as it was part of the debate on IR ages ago.

I see it as carefully written, without conclusion, which although makes interesting reading really says very little.

Richie-from-the-Boro

fishybusiness wrote: »

It's difficult isn't it, on the one hand the reported subjective feeling of comfort, on the other the analysis of the data collected.

I was interested in this report as it was part of the debate on IR ages ago.

I see it as carefully written, without conclusion, which although makes interesting reading really says very little.

In my opinion

As I've said before my friend I'm not anti infra I'm anti those that sell it as a cheap[er] comfortable replacement for night store heating. its neither cheap nor comfortable and it certainly is not maintenance free for 50 years. Sold by sleight of hand and uber glossy advertising mainly to unsuspecting older folk behind closed doors with no consumer protection by speciality salesmen posing as engineers. These units costing up to four times the price of a night store space & water heating system do not even deliver on the basics of their disingenuous advertising hence the reason they are continually taken to task by the advertising standards authority.

Per the above report, yes I've read everyone that's been reported here, and all that are out there by sellers of these warez and they all say precisely nowt - because they have nothing to .... say. They have nothing objective to report because facts would completely destroy their business model. Yet people want the idea that they can have a slim silky sexy NSCH replacement system that's a third of the price to run .............. until someone gives me objective data all these Paul Daniels infra heating systems in an ordinary UK domestic built dwelling can not be compared to the comfort and cost of night store space & water heating.

The GOV own the housing associations and push push push their green UK tax base subsidy & carbon trading agenda on any one vulnerable and HA's are very vulnerable. I'm prepared if someone develops an equally cost effective long term domestic infra system for the UK to admit I'm wrong but I'm not holding my breath for any results till we get 5kW per dome shaped roof mounted room - every room install. """without conclusion, which although makes interesting reading really says very little""" you have it about right my friend.

missionary_2

Mackemps there is one thing that must be understood about the latest infra red radiators.

Those that have written above that all electric heaters are 100% efficient and 1kw consumption is 1 kw consumption, no matter the system are correct.

BUT the modern infra red panel systems are linked digitally to a central control panel via the ring main. (This is free standing and can be plugged into the mains anywhere in the home and used to monitor and set the system). Each panel has a built-in computer and temperature sensor which immediately transmits information to the control panel. It monitors supply to the 'master panel' (usually in the main living room) when that room is up to temperature the master panel turns off and the control panel then turns on to meet demand for power from the next panel in the system. When that has started to heat it will remain on until the sensor in the master panel cools down a degree or two and then the control turns off the second panel, then re-heats the master, maybe only for a couple of minutes, then it returns power to the second panel. Then the third panel kicks in and so on until all panels are pulsing heat under the central control.

This constant pulsing distributes heat through the house, yet at any one time is using say 2kw, this because only one panel is turned on at any one time. This is how the claim to use 2kw for the whole system is valid.

In effect the pulsing of heat through the system means that all panels are warm, but they are being turned on and off electronically for short periods at a time. (Think of a strobe light on an aircraft wingtip).

On the control panel you will be able to see the temperature in any one room and also see the cost of electricity consumed during the day or even year - having first programmed your cost into the system when the engineers set it up.

The one major (British invented and made) system also transmits constant information to the manufacturer's control centre so they can monitor performance of your system. But they can also now use the system to your advantage by additional facilities that will benefit their customers. e.g. switching to cheaper power suppliers just overnight for instance, integral intruder alarm etc. etc.

So to put individual panels in a house with traditional controls will be counter productive as our learned electrician friends have been saying above, I have no argument with that.

But to install a modern IR system with central controls takes you into a whole new technology to heat your home at lower cost.

HTH

Cardew

Readers should read, and dismiss, other posts by 'missionary' promoting the technology he promotes and sells.

The post above is just salesman's 'mumbo jumbo' designed to impress clients.

If 'his' modern system uses, say, 10kWh over a set period, it will produce EXACTLY the same amount of heat as any other electrical heating system - including granny's 1/2/3 bar heater.
If you really want an IR heating system, get some heaters costing thirty pounds from Argos!

lstar337

missionary wrote: »

Mackemps there is one thing that must be understood about the latest infra red radiators.

Those that have written above that all electric heaters are 100% efficient and 1kw consumption is 1 kw consumption, no matter the system are correct.

BUT the modern infra red panel systems are linked digitally to a central control panel via the ring main. (This is free standing and can be plugged into the mains anywhere in the home and used to monitor and set the system). Each panel has a built-in computer and temperature sensor which immediately transmits information to the control panel. It monitors supply to the 'master panel' (usually in the main living room) when that room is up to temperature the master panel turns off and the control panel then turns on to meet demand for power from the next panel in the system. When that has started to heat it will remain on until the sensor in the master panel cools down a degree or two and then the control turns off the second panel, then re-heats the master, maybe only for a couple of minutes, then it returns power to the second panel. Then the third panel kicks in and so on until all panels are pulsing heat under the central control.

This constant pulsing distributes heat through the house, yet at any one time is using say 2kw, this because only one panel is turned on at any one time. This is how the claim to use 2kw for the whole system is valid.

In effect the pulsing of heat through the system means that all panels are warm, but they are being turned on and off electronically for short periods at a time. (Think of a strobe light on an aircraft wingtip).

On the control panel you will be able to see the temperature in any one room and also see the cost of electricity consumed during the day or even year - having first programmed your cost into the system when the engineers set it up.

So, an overcomplicated thermostat?

missionary wrote: »

But to install a modern IR system with central controls takes you into a whole new technology to heat your home at lower cost.

Not seeing anything above that would reduce running cost.

It takes a set amount of power to heat a room, pulsed or not, so the cost will be the same. All the pulsing is likely to do is make it take longer to heat the room.

As an example:
Conditions = Perfect and 1kWh = 12p

It takes 1kWh of heat to bring the room to the set temperature.

A 1kW convector heater takes 1 hour to bring room to temperature, cost 12p.

A 1kW IR heater (Full on) takes 1 hour to bring room to temperature, cost 12p.

A 1kW pulsing IR heater (on 50% of the time) takes 2 hours to bring room up to temperature, cost 12p.

All the above system has, is an overcomplicated control system that will likely break repeatedly.