Planning permission and enforcement notice

Mart6_2

Hope this is on the right forum if its not could someone move it.
I am a new member and was advised that council planning officers some times read this , if so i hope someone could give me some advise.
I have fallen foul of the council planners and they are determind to be as unhelpful as possible.
A qiuck run down approx 18 months ago i bought some brick stables with 6 acres, with the intention of breeding a few pedigree goats and eventually building it up to a bisness.
All started well got a couple ordered another 15 for the following spring.
Things were going well 15 new goats arrived. Things were moving nicely.
Then problems cropped up goat got altacked by stray dog,then someone broke in and stole £5000 worth of equipment.Then the final straw i arrived one morning the gate lock was cut and there was a tarmacking tipper with a caravan attatched claiming gate was open asking about tarmac. I honestly think they were going to set up camp,

Anyway they left i was worried about the animals so a camped out in the day room. Over the following weeks said van kept appearing so i decided to stay nights.
Cut to chase council were informed they sent enforcement officer out.
Most unplesent person i have met i told him full story he tore strips off me illegal this dogs should not be in stable not even for my security blah blah.
So he convinced me to apply for retrospective planning said security angle would be classed as residential and they would look favourably at it if i agreed not to use more than the day room or site a mobile home was happy with that.
In goes planning they take my money months later its refused its in green belt blah blah thought i was being played but they are going out thier way to be awkward.
They are going to serve me with a enforcement notice i have 20 goats here in the middle of kidding they can not be left alone at night for welfare reasons let alone the other problems.
My questions are do i have any options?
Been advised to put touring caravan on site im entitled to while kidding ?
Asked council if they would accept that and would it breach the coming enforcement order they wont give me a straight answer.
I know about the 12.5 acre rule and will try to obtain the extra land and put in for barn and tempory mobile home but thats months away.
Could appeal with a bis plan but were not that far down the road and i will only have 28 days once served with enforcement.
Is there any options till i can submit a 12.5 acre barn.
Would having someone else there in the day time while i sleep at home, then i return to site at night staying awake as security, would that be classed as residential use in enforcement ?
Any advice would be appreciated i am at my witts end
Sorry for the long winded post
Tia

Davesnave

So....

The council think you are living at this site permanently, no doubt because neighbours/their employee have noticed your permanent presence.

You have created a situation, based on animal welfare, where you 'need' to be there 24/7.

The council are serving you with an enforcement notice as your appeal for retrospective permission to use a mobile home or convert an existing building to act as living/sleeping accommodation, has been refused.

Unless you increase your holding to 5 hectares (12.5 acres) you cannot be treated for planning purposes as a 'farmer,' who would have different rules applied, provided they were running a viable business, for which accounts would need to be submitted.

You have been told (by whom?) that you may have a touring van on the land while goats are kidding.

No one can create a viable business breeding goats on 6 acres, so in the long term you would need to acquire more land to have any hope of even temporary residence in the form of a mobile home. You've said this.

Then, after a number of years, you'd need to submit accounts to prove you had a proper working farm,not just a hobby business, before being granted permission for an agriculturally tied residence of some kind.

I'm setting out the above to make your post clearer to others.

Those are the rules, which you now understand. You will not get around them once you've come to the attention of the council, though I doubt if they will be too hard on you if you show a willingness to extricate yourself from the situation you're now in.

At present, you need to deal with the immediate welfare of the animals during kidding, but if you've managed so far, why do you need to put a caravan of any kind on the site, and for how long? You may put a van on any piece of land for 28 days a year, so I presume that's regarded as having been used up. Having different people sleeping there in shifts won't make any difference either.

Yours is no different from any business that sets up in breach of planning laws, I'm afraid, but unlike a restaurant, I doubt they will close you down immediately. The animals' welfare will be considered, I'm sure.

You could seek advice from animal welfare organisations, who might have experience of similar situations and help to guide you out of this.

martindow

You could also search for smallholders' organisations who no doubt have come across similar situations. There may be a local association who have experience of dealing with your local authority.

However I know that many local authorities are very hot on this as allowing a caravan on the basis of the need to care for animals leads to an application for a house. Being under 5ha you are going to struggle to get them to agree to your caravan.

mart6

Davesnave wrote: »

So....

The council think you are living at this site permanently, no doubt because neighbours/their employee have noticed your permanent presence.

You have created a situation, based on animal welfare, where you 'need' to be there 24/7.

The council are serving you with an enforcement notice as your appeal for retrospective permission to use a mobile home or convert an existing building to act as living/sleeping accommodation, has been refused.

Unless you increase your holding to 5 hectares (12.5 acres) you cannot be treated for planning purposes as a 'farmer,' who would have different rules applied, provided they were running a viable business, for which accounts would need to be submitted.

You have been told (by whom?) that you may have a touring van on the land while goats are kidding.

No one can create a viable business breeding goats on 6 acres, so in the long term you would need to acquire more land to have any hope of even temporary residence in the form of a mobile home. You've said this.

Then, after a number of years, you'd need to submit accounts to prove you had a proper working farm,not just a hobby business, before being granted permission for an agriculturally tied residence of some kind.

I'm setting out the above to make your post clearer to others.

Those are the rules, which you now understand. You will not get around them once you've come to the attention of the council, though I doubt if they will be too hard on you if you show a willingness to extricate yourself from the situation you're now in.

At present, you need to deal with the immediate welfare of the animals during kidding, but if you've managed so far, why do you need to put a caravan of any kind on the site, and for how long? You may put a van on any piece of land for 28 days a year, so I presume that's regarded as having been used up. Having different people sleeping there in shifts won't make any difference either.

Yours is no different from any business that sets up in breach of planning laws, I'm afraid, but unlike a restaurant, I doubt they will close you down immediately. The animals' welfare will be considered, I'm sure.

You could seek advice from animal welfare organisations, who might have experience of similar situations and help to guide you out of this.

Thanks for the reply

i understand the 12.5 acre thing and the bis plan that is in hand.
Its a little bit more complecated regarding what can be made profit wise.
Female pedigree starts at £400 , i have just turned down £3000 worth of possible sales today as i intended to keep them for next year.
I have buyers for whatever i can produce as demand out strips supply.
I have use of 2 acres of woodland and about 4 acres worth of ground cover for grazing from the local shoot. Bis wisei am quite sure it will be viable if i overcome the current hurdles.

My thoughts were employ someone for the day time, i sleep at home days all verified and indiputable proof then i return and do night shift
no sleeping no beds ect.
Surely that would be no different to someone having security at there premises?
Would only envisige having to do it for a year till i can purchase additional land, could go rental route but i intend to submit full application next time with accounts that show profits. I am fully aware of exactly what is required.
Im not inexperienced in that department worked on a 3000 head sheep farm for 5 years when i left school, ran a diy/garden center for 10 years.

I just need toensure my property is not stolen and the animals welfare

mart6

martindow wrote: »

You could also search for smallholders' organisations who no doubt have come across similar situations. There may be a local association who have experience of dealing with your local authority.

However I know that many local authorities are very hot on this as allowing a caravan on the basis of the need to care for animals leads to an application for a house. Being under 5ha you are going to struggle to get them to agree to your caravan.

They hated the caravan idea ,we had a hour and a half meeting to try and come to a agreement they said they were aminable to the above i never really quite believed it.
i am not scared of a challenge i had a 3 year battle with tescos when they tried to dispute a boundry for a extension even solicitor thought i was on a looser but it came through in the end they had to spend £10000-s rtedrawing plans and never did build it in the end

mart6

he council think you are living at this site permanently, no doubt because neighbours/their employee have noticed your permanent presence.

Think being the case
i live elsewhere, pay electric ,council, tax,insurance ect.
To be classed as residentiail use i was led to believe it had to be your primary residence and permenent not a occasional stay?

Argghhh

sleep in your car? on the road outside your gate?

Davesnave

mart6 wrote: »

he council think you are living at this site permanently, no doubt because neighbours/their employee have noticed your permanent presence.

Think being the case
i live elsewhere, pay electric ,council, tax,insurance ect.
To be classed as residentiail use i was led to believe it had to be your primary residence and permenent not a occasional stay?

Occasional stays are OK, because anyone is allowed to camp or have a touring caravan on their land for 28 days in the year, (Google 28 day rule.) which don't need to be consecutive.

Paying council tax and so forth elsewhere strengthens your case, if you want to prove non-residence, but doesn't in itself prove that you are not breaking the 28 day rule. However the council would have to prove you are breaking it, which could be difficult for them, especially if you are only staying overnight occasionally.

Who is to know whether it's 15 days, 28 days or 72 days in a year?

mart6

Well i got the enforcement notice
Thought it would not be so simple lol.
Here are the enforcement contitions
All sounds a bit vague to me
1 . Cease using stable block for residential use
2 . Cease using stable block as kenneling.
3 . Remove all beds,bedding and furniture associated with residential use from the stable block and remove from the land.
4 .Remove metel kenneling cages from the stable block and remove from the land.
5 .Remove all rubish, waste and non agricultral/equestianmaterial from the land.

mart6

Davesnave wrote: »

Occasional stays are OK, because anyone is allowed to camp or have a touring caravan on their land for 28 days in the year, (Google 28 day rule.) which don't need to be consecutive.

Paying council tax and so forth elsewhere strengthens your case, if you want to prove non-residence, but doesn't in itself prove that you are not breaking the 28 day rule. However the council would have to prove you are breaking it, which could be difficult for them, especially if you are only staying overnight occasionally.

Who is to know whether it's 15 days, 28 days or 72 days in a year?

Bit that will cause issues is kidding i have to be there and several need bottle feeding every few hours then its time to start again.
I have to heat milk sterilise bottles ect so whats classed as staying over and what would be animal welfare.
They are real anti anything putting obsticles in the way for the hell of it

martindow

Sorry to be blunt OP, but it is your choice to keep goats there. If you propose a farming activity that obliges you to be in residence it is unwise to use premises where this is not permitted.

The price you paid no doubt reflected the planning issue. As a residence it would probably have cost a lot more.