Nissan Leafs....amazing deals to be had (1000 miles UPDATE)

AdrianC

jaydeeuk1 wrote: »

Toyota seem to be heralding hydrogen as the answer, I'm not so sure yet.

BMW were touting hydrogen as the answer a decade ago.
They had a hydrogen-powered 7-series being waved as production-ready. Small problem, the boot was FULL of tank, yet it had a 70-mile range, and the fuel disappeared via osmosis if you didn't use it in a week.

The mechanical properties of hydrogen haven't changed.

The basic problem is that petrol, diesel and LPG are dead easy and quick to replensih, have massively high energy density, and the infrastructure is universal already.

FWIW, I saw an i3 the other day. In Wales. On Belgian plates.

Moto2

An EV would be ideal for my wife, never more than 20 or so miles per day, never ventures more than 5 miles from home.

Alas, the lack of off-street parking kills the deal

Crabman

I just looked at the Nissan Leaf PCP deals and it looks like they've got nothing anywhere near as competitive as what gzoom got in March.

Wonder why they were so well priced back then but not now.

gzoom

The deals are still around but you need to call round different dealers...Even the deal I got was never formally 'advertised'. I really don't understand why Nissan doesn't just lower the actual list price, by £5-10k, because effectively that's what these deals are doing...It would make the Leaf very attractive to a whole load of people :cool:

photome

gzoom wrote: »

The deals are still around but you need to call round different dealers...Even the deal I got was never formally 'advertised'. I really don't understand why Nissan doesn't just lower the actual list price, by £5-10k, because effectively that's what these deals are doing...It would make the Leaf very attractive to a whole load of people :cool:

However you spin it, the leaf will never be attractive;)

Joe_Horner

gzoom wrote: »

Some people just don't like change, I understand that, but if you do your own research into EVs your see that though the current crop is only 1st generation products

That, to me, is the real issue.

I've nothing against alternative "fuel" systems, in fact from an engineering / technology POV I like things that break from the norm.

The problem I have with EVs at the moment is that, as you say, they're first gen (well, technically 2nd gen allowing for lead acid powered stuff in the past) and they simply don't come close to meeting the needs of most people yet.

That's not intended as a killer criticism of them - first gen cars were hardly practical compared to a horse & cart for most people - but it is a fact, and no amount of marketing and subsidising by the tax payer will change that until the technology takes a HUGE leap.

The problem there is that a Model T was at least in theory capable of doing most things a Mondeo does. Slower, less reliably, and far less comfortably, but still able to do it. Te development from there has basically been tweaking of a fundamental system that works.

An EV isn't because of the range and the time to charge. It's extremely unlikely that they'll ever develop batteries that can hold anything like the energy of liquid fuel, or that can be charged from empty in the 3 minutes or so it takes to pump a full tank. I honestly hope I'm wrong on that, but the technical gulf between what's possible now and what would be needed for that is enormous!

Meanwhile, costs will never drop to comparable levels just through scale for a simple reason. Iron and steel are cheap. The assorted rare earth elements needed in current EVs aren't - by their very nature they're "rare" and, therefore expensive. They also become more expensive
if demand increases significantly because of their rarity.

That's just a few of the many problems facing EVs at the moment and for the foreseeable future, yet we're told that it's now a mature technology that's ready for mass adoption. On which, I call !!!!!!!!. And if there's one thing I hate, it's being !!!!!!!!ted

Paradigm

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Meanwhile, costs will never drop to comparable levels just through scale for a simple reason. Iron and steel are cheap. The assorted rare earth elements needed in current EVs aren't - by their very nature they're "rare" and, therefore expensive. They also become more expensive
if demand increases significantly because of their rarity.

The technology to improve massively on cost, reliability, charging times & longevity could be on it's way but it's still early days...


http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/stanford-researchers-unveil-new-ultrafast-charging-aluminum-ion-battery/


Lots of work to do but I wouldn't be surprised if a solution is found within the next 5-10 years.

mgfvvc

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Meanwhile, costs will never drop to comparable levels just through scale for a simple reason. Iron and steel are cheap. The assorted rare earth elements needed in current EVs aren't - by their very nature they're "rare" and, therefore expensive. They also become more expensive
if demand increases significantly because of their rarity.

That's a common misconception. They are rare because few people bother to mine them, but they aren't really rare. The Chinese recently restricted exports to safeguard their supply or make life difficult for electronics manufacturers elsewhere. In the short term the price spiked, but that just resulted in new suppliers appearing.

That's from memory. I haven't checked my facts.

gzoom

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Meanwhile, costs will never drop to comparable levels just through scale for a simple reason.

I think you find a chap called Elon Musk disagrees with you...

The Tesla S with a realistic range of 250miles+ already offers the same performance as a BMW M5/Audi RS6/AMG E class merc, infact it actually offers more performance for £70K. But 1/10 the running costs.

The Tesla battery factor is on schedule start mass production by end of 2016, and reduce battery costs by 1/3. A 691BHP Tesla S, 0-60 in 3.1 second, with a 250mile range for £50K (30% cheaper than now) will make EVERY performance petrol/diesel car redundant.

AdrianC

gzoom wrote: »

I think you find a chap called Elon Musk disagrees with you...

Of course he does... He has a vested interest in disagreeing.

But that doesn't get around the basic physics that dictate charging times. Shove an 85kwh battery in a Zoe or Leaf, and see what the range would be. Or a Twizy. But short of a BIG FAT mains connection, a Tesla will take eons to charge. 85kwh from a 13a plug will take nearly 30hrs, before charging losses.