Electric car & charging

sillygoose

almillar wrote: »

My F-I-L has just bought one of these and I had a test drive. It's like a sports car compared to a Mk3 Discovery, especially in terms of roll - and no, not as comfortable.
It's heavy, but the weight is low down. I'm a geek and the toys are great. Some people complained about the stereo (which is also the on board computer that shows you all the electric stuff) being slow to use, but it's fine really.
This is NOT a vehicle for high milers. If you ask Mitsubishi for one, they'll tell you to buy the diesel instead if you do high miles - it just won't work out.
People asking for miles per gallon miss the point. There are two motors - the electric one and the petrol one.
If you only use the electric one (range 30 miles, and that seems realistic, honestly), the MPG is infinity.
If you use only the petrol 2.0l the range is about 270 miles, and the MPG will be about 30 on average.
So if your journeys are only ever under 30 miles, you'll never need the petrol engine.
Or if you do 100 miles a day, you'll get, say, 35 miles to the gallon equivalent, and you'd be better with a diesel.

Timer heating - yes, the whole point of this is to do it in your garage plugged in. The car is charged, and your house's electric heats the car - you leave the garage in a warm car with a 30 mile electric range.


You can, but that's inefficient. You have to adapt to your journey. It does have regenerative engine braking, which you adjust with the paddles behind the wheel. You know in a manual when you change down a gear, the revs go up and you're pulled forward? That's engine braking - this car uses that to charge the battery through the electric motor, helping you slow down like in a manual. Or, using the paddles behind the wheel (they're not gear shifters!) you can adjust this variably to 'off', where it will just float along like an automatic, but give you no power for your excess speed. If you don't want to think about all this, just leave it at 3 - but you're kindof missing the point of the car.

Please don't PM questions - whoever is bored doesn't have to read the thread!

Basically right but its a bit more complicated than that. Its not one or the other as propulsion, the two work together, you have to have a very light foot not to get the petrol engine to kick in when speeding up, so the engine kicks in and out all the time. It also likes to run it a bit first thing I presume to warm it a bit even if fully charged, warmed and the heating off. Eventually you will use up petrol inevitably.

The EV (electric range) prediction isn't too smart but apparently it will learn. I left home fully charged with a predicted EV range of only 18 miles shown. I did a 16 mile trip (didn't charge there) then with only 1 mile range showing started the return journey. It soon showed EV range "--" but kept running on battery. Over the last couple of miles the engine started on and off a few times - it seems able to put a good lump of charge in a short time then shuts off for a few more minutes in cycles. Final indicated mpg was 48mpg The journey included 30 minutes stationary at an accident with the heating on (from battery) and a mix of urban stop start and fast dual carriageway runs.
I will live with that.

I also disagree with the assertion that longer distance drivers should always go for the diesel. Not if its a company car and your business fuel is paid for.

In this case on shorter trips you are mostly EV and on longer faster trips the PHEV petrol run economy will be bad but so are most diesel SUV's, my last 2 were no better than the PHEV under those conditions.

But the company car tax break is so astonishing compared to the diesel you would have to be racking up a LOT of private (so not reimbursed) mileage to be even near better off with a diesel.

If your company car is more a perk car and you do nearly all private mileage in a long commute then things can turn around a bit.

I do half a dozen tankfuls of reimbursed business mileage and 1 tankful of private mileage I pay for per month. So even if the PHEV did half as many MPG as the diesel, the higher cost of that tankful doesn't come close to the £220+ a month tax saving against a diesel SUV.

gord115

sillygoose wrote: »

Getting mine tomorrow :T:T:T

And I don't give a rats bottom about any of the above, what running this car will do to the planet is unimaginably miniscule compared to what the industries in China, India, USA wtc do every day. If they stop so will I!

Meanwhile I will swan around in my big SUV paying £220 a MONTH less tax than most other people in theirs.. and nothing is going to stop me feeling bad about that.

Oh.. and the government are paying £5000 towards my new car as a grant.. thanks!

As to the review copied by worried jim, well selective would describe it. A couple of hatchet jobs presumably to keep their German advertisers happy and widely considered to be utter tosh. The Clarkson one seems to be for another vehicle it so factual incorrect! The Germans are playing catch up on this technology and they don't like that.

Having had one on test for several days I actually ordered one by the end of the first day so unlike Clarkson I have actually driven one for real.

Its a very quiet comfortable, spacious, sure footed vehicle, it rides very well, and I am especially critical in that areas and had discounted several alternatives such as the shockingly uncomfortable Tiguan.

Seats are comfortable and the vehicle is quick (Whatcar found it quicker in the mid range than the diesel automatic BMW X3 and Audi Q5 or XC60) and competitive over other speed benchmarks.

The regenerative braking is nothing like hitting a wall, you can control with paddles on the steering wheel the level of slowing and its ideal for holding your speed steady downhill the same as putting a normal car in a lower gear - no one is going to rear end you

Despite Clarkson, this car is selling like hot potatoes, way outselling all others and taking half the electric car grants.

Also you don't start the engine. The car runs from the battery using electric motors. Generally the engine starts when needed to top up the battery then stops again, or starts quickly and pitches in if you need faster acceleration, then shuts down.

As I said, I am not buying it for the Green bit, I would rather give my hard earned to Mitsubishi for a fantastic car than give it to the government in phoney justification tax for a rubbish car.

Nice one mate, If I was in the market for a 4x4 this is the one I'd choose. Ignore the doomsayers,you've got a bargain.:T

almillar

you have to have a very light foot not to get the petrol engine to kick in when speeding up

Absolutely not my understanding - and the whole selling point of the car is that you can travel short distances without the petrol engine starting.
And you can go quite fast without it starting too - isn't there a sortof notch in the accelerator that if you go beyond, the petrol engine starts.

I also disagree with the assertion that longer distance drivers should always go for the diesel. Not if its a company car and your business fuel is paid for.

Yes, I was talking about domestic users, and purely fuel used. A diesel would use less and I have no idea of the tax implications for company vehicles.

tangoev

Iceweasel wrote: »

I wouldn't even think of getting an electric car - on principal.

They are more polluting than a diesel.

Consider the whole effect on the planet.

How and where was the battery produced?

How is the electricity to re-charge it produced?

The whole thing is a con.

And the government know it - but they need to be seen to be doing something.

Doing anything will do - even pulling the wool over our eyes.

Interesting - Lets looks at these:

The premise is that an EV has no tail pipe emissions as all the cars internals are electric. Electric motors are incredibly efficient and effective with about 98% of the battery power going to the wheels as compared to a petrol engine with about 35% of the power going to the wheels. ICE cars run hot.

Secondly Power Station's are also pretty efficient at generating electricity as is the transmissions grid at delivering electricity.

Plus we have a Grid and it works well.

The batteries are an expensive component of any EV. They are highly recyclable. Standard Lead Acid batteries are also highly recyclable. If the pack still has charge they can be used in stationery battery back up for solar or stand by power. If they have no charge the metal components are separated and recycled.

Electric cars are far more efficient that a petrol or diesel powered vehicle at every step of the way. Tail pipe, transmission and recycling.

AdrianC

tangoev wrote: »

Secondly Power Station's are also pretty efficient at generating electricity

The vast majority of this country's electricity is from fossil fuels - coal and gas, primarily. The average CO2 per kWh quoted varies, but is usually around 500g. Full range of a Nissan Leaf's 24kWh nominal battery capacity is 124 miles, call it 200km. I make that about 60g/km of CO2. Pretty good, but not exceptional.

The batteries are an expensive component of any EV. They are highly recyclable. Standard Lead Acid batteries are also highly recyclable.

Lithium-Ion batteries are used, not lead acid.

Have a read of this :-
http://www.waste-management-world.com/articles/print/volume-12/issue-4/features/the-lithium-battery-recycling-challenge.html

Guinness-Cat

AdrianC wrote: »

The vast majority of this country's electricity is from fossil fuels - coal and gas, primarily. The average CO2 per kWh quoted varies, but is usually around 500g. Full range of a Nissan Leaf's 24kWh nominal battery capacity is 124 miles, call it 200km. I make that about 60g/km of CO2. Pretty good, but not exceptional.

the emissions at the talepipe are zero - and this is the figure we need to to compare as it is the figure normally given for traditionally 'fuelled' cars

Comparing total impact would also be a fair comparison, but not that simple - for a normally 'fuelled' car you would also have to add the carbon costs for manufacturing the petrol including digging it out of the ground, transporting it half way across the world, refining it, transporting from refinery to petrol station.

I'm not sure on what this exact figure would be, but I think it would dwarf that of a electric car. As an example, apparently it takes 6KWh to refine 1 (American) gallon on petrol see: http://greentransportation.info/guide/energy/electricity-to-refine-gallon-gasoline.html

AdrianC

Guinness-Cat wrote: »

the emissions at the talepipe are zero - and this is the figure we need to to compare as it is the figure normally given for traditionally 'fuelled' cars

No, not really - since electricity isn't a powersource, unlike petrol or diesel - it's merely a way of transmitting power.

Comparing total impact would also be a fair comparison, but not that simple - for a normally 'fuelled' car you would also have to add the carbon costs for manufacturing the petrol including digging it out of the ground, transporting it half way across the world, refining it, transporting from refinery to petrol station.

Also consider the environmental impact of mining that coal and shipping it across the world. (You may not have noticed, but the UK doesn't actually mine much coal these days).

You may also wish to consider that moving transport to grid electricity is the last thing that really ought to be happening, at a time when the UK faces severe generation shortages in the short to medium term.

Guinness-Cat

AdrianC wrote: »

No, not really - since electricity isn't a powersource, unlike petrol or diesel - it's merely a way of transmitting power.

Yes really - I charge my powersource (battery) from cables which run to my house - others recharge their tanks from petrol stations - I'd be fairly sure that the cables are a more efficient method of transferring energy from the supplier to my car.

AdrianC wrote: »

Also consider the environmental impact of mining that coal and shipping it across the world. (You may not have noticed, but the UK doesn't actually mine much coal these days).

Yes - to do a fair total comparison, all factors should be included - but like the link supplied showed, my car will drive ~20 miles just on the electricity used at the refinery to refine one gallon of oil \ forgetting about all the other waste in the system.


I quite like Elon Musk's quote in the states 'We'd have plenty of electricity for electric cars if we just stopped refining oil"


Also, electricity CAN come from other sources and the amount being produced by solar \ wind \ other renewables is steadily increasing in the UK - it's not so easy with fossil fuels.

AdrianC wrote: »

You may also wish to consider that moving transport to grid electricity is the last thing that really ought to be happening, at a time when the UK faces severe generation shortages in the short to medium term.

The problems with the grid at the moment mainly come from variable demand (peaks). At the moment, we are even having to pay some suppliers for not producing electricity...


There is a good interview explaining how EV's can help smooth the system here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX0G9F42puY

AdrianC

I'm not entirely convinced that Elon Musk can be regarded as unbiased, y'know.

Oh, and http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/