Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Tromking

CLAPTON wrote: »

absolutely right : the SNP should avoid this like the plague:
get independence first then it's too late when tax rises by 5p in the pound (or scottish equivalent)

Yes.
Way better to hold on desperately to Barnett and plug the fiscal hole with that than make the uniquely progressive Scots pay for it themselves. You think the SNP would be wanting to show us rabid right wingers down south how different the Scots really are, wouldn't you?

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Time will tell how that initiative by Scottish Labour works out: it may turn out to be a cunning plan.

Labour have shown that the cutting back on certain service's can be avoided. SNP have stated that they won't do that. So when/if those services are cut and the SNP try to blame Westminster, according to form, Labour will be able to say that such cuts could have been avoided if the SNP had not been so mired in their divisive political agenda, and that the SNP are responsible, not Westminster. The story will also include accusing the SNP of not having the bottle to solve the problem.

... and more ... imagine the blow back when the SNP are forced to take action. It won't be just a 1d rise then, and SNP will be to blame for that too.

I look forward to that. Cracks, cracks, cracks...

Good luck to them selling this to the Scots. Those on 10k+ a year hit with a 5% increase in income tax, and pay more tax than anywhere else in the UK, just to offset Tory austerity cuts ? To stay in the union ?



Oh and the fact that they have absolutely no idea where this 'rebate' is going to come from. They're confusing the current tax system with the benefit system.

Holyrood has no legislative competence to introduce such a scheme, as "taxes and excise duties" remain - broadly - reserved. So this is no "rebate", no "tax refund". And critically, it couldn't be administered through the tax system, with all of its convenient access to the financial information of hundreds of thousands of Scots.

Although is - doubtless - convenient political shorthand for Dugdale to link the two, what the Labour leader is proposing here is an entitlement scheme quite distinct from Holyrood's decision-making on the Scottish rate of income tax. Such a payment seems to fall within the - generally reserved - domain of social security.

http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/questions-questions.html

A full explanation at the links. You might want to read them, as you seem a little misinformed about what Scottish Labour is proposing. What a shame they voted against devolving any of the above during the Smith commission, and voted with the Tories for cuts just after the General Election. Coming back to bite them a bit now.

Let’s be frank about Scottish Labour’s position in our politics today. They are pitching to the section of the electorate that is not interested in them while actively turning many middle class unionists – their new core voter base – off them. This is an electoral kamikaze campaign with the sole purpose of just trying to dent the SNP’s progressive facade.

If there was one thing that Scottish Labour – an army already suffering mass casualties – did not need was another front. Today they have opened up this new front voluntarily. God help them, as I’m not sure they can help themselves.

http://aidankerr.com/2016/02/02/scottish-labours-tax-plans-will-hurt-most-scots-and-their-own-campaign/

kabayiri

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It's Labour, not the SNP. The SNP crashed and burned with this proposed across the board tax rise policy in the late 1990's calling it 'A penny for Scotland'.

I sincerely doubt 'A penny for the Union' will fare any better. From what I can see on twitter and online the prevailing mood seems to be along the lines of.

Ahh right.

Isn't it a question as to what you do with the proceeds though?

I'm not anti additional taxation.

Shakethedisease

kabayiri wrote: »

Ahh right.

Isn't it a question as to what you do with the proceeds though?

I'm not anti additional taxation.

I think they want to 'save' education and/or the NHS/public services. But as above, there seem to be a host of complexities with the rebate they want to introduce for low earners. Not least, that at the present time. most of the powers to do so are still reserved.

I'm not against it in principle either btw. But I think the timing is very wrong for Scottish Labour given their recent ( UK ) history on voting at Westminster, and their reluctance to devolve any tax raising powers whatsoever during the Smith commission. All too recent. It's reflecting very badly on them now politically. And the whole thing is falling apart already.

To recap - they don't know the cost or timescales for rebates, but tax hikes are immediate!

I love this description of SLab's new Scottish Tax - "The 1p Better Together Tax". Describes it so accurately.

The SNP conversely, would probably have gotten away with it politically speaking. Had it been them who announced it as you thought. But there's no way they would've done so without making sure mechanism's for rebates for low earners were firmly in place first.

.string.

@Shakey - I think your reply, and Labour's proposal, are in the realm of Scottish Party politics and subject to spin out of sight of reality to some extent on both sides, so I don't personally buy into either the sense of what Labour suggest or the sense of your rebuttal. In today's Politics Show both sides (Labour and SNP) said the other was wrong). Tweedledum and Tweedledee. Take it up with them, not me.


My point was solely about the tactical political game they may be playing in making their proposal. Time will tell who Scots believe when the public service cuts, engineered by the SNP, bite.

Mistermeaner

How else is an I scotland going to meet its spending ambitions unless it raises taxes?

Perhaps it should ask the people of Scotland for voluntary contributions?

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

@Shakey - I think your reply, and Labour's proposal, are in the realm of Scottish Party politics and subject to spin out of sight of reality to some extent on both sides,

There's no need for spin on the legalities. Holyrood doesn't have the power to rebate tax to low earners through the tax system. And of course it's in the realm of Scottish Party politics. Raising tax using the old Scotland Act across the board is a Holyrood issue. It comes into force in April.

so I don't personally buy into either the sense of what Labour suggest or the sense of your rebuttal. In today's Politics Show both sides (Labour and SNP) said the other was wrong). Tweedledum and Tweedledee. Take it up with them, not me.

My point was solely about the tactical political game they may be playing in making their proposal. Time will tell who Scots believe when the public service cuts, engineered by the SNP, bite.

I doubt there will be many bite on this one. It's already been named the 'BetterTogether tax' so will shortly be toxic to half of Scotland's voters. Scottish Labour ( politically ) went for this far too soon imo. Far too soon after saying Scotland didn't need any more income tax powers at all. And Jim Murphy last year was pledging he'd never raise it as too many low/middle income earners would be hit and a 'Vow plus' was announced. Is all far too fresh in people's minds and associated with the referendum.

At the end of the day you've had Labour campaigning for 3 years saying we'd be better off in the union. Blocking just about everything in Smith ( before they realised the polls were looking really bad ). Voted with the Tories on their austerity plan. Now trying to blame the SNP for not dealing with Tory austerity cuts which they voted for !

Justifying higher income tax in Scotland than anywhere else in the UK, simply in order to tread water within the union ? This is not BetterTogether, or union dividends any more. This is ordinary people being taxed to pay for Tory cuts which Labour supported. A Tory party hardly any of them voted for in Scotland. Scottish Labour have fallen straight into the trap using the old Scotland act, that we all really want to avoid with the new Scotland Act. Ordinary workers/low earners being worse off in Scotland via income tax, in a vain attempt to stave off ongoing Westminster austerity policies. Where does that stop before independence seems the better option ?

Madness and desperation. As we say in Scotland. We don't button up the back. We know what the Labour party voted for. We watched it happen and the clips have been shared widely on social media.

So the deeper the Tories cut, the more SLab will attack the SNP for not finding the money to fix it. Nice little unionist one-two there.

<--- in a nutshell.

Shakethedisease

Mistermeaner wrote: »

How else is an I scotland going to meet its spending ambitions unless it raises taxes?

Perhaps it should ask the people of Scotland for voluntary contributions?

It needs all taxes and powers to meet spending ambitions. Not teeny weeny partial income tax ones.

Mistermeaner

Forgive my ignorance but if the mechanisms don't exist through existing system why not just pass a law to collect through some other way eg. A means tested portion of council tax etc. A special levy etc. Additional business rates.

It sounds more to me like a system limitation than a powers one which would need to be overcome by an I scotland anyway.

Perhaps I misunderstood but the BBC levy a tax on each household; if they can surely so can holyrood , just means test it in some way.

This is what the people of Scotland (apparently) want so let's do it. The public will support this.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It needs all taxes and powers to meet spending ambitions. Not teeny weeny partial income tax ones.

stay focused
the SNP doesn't have a spending ambition : it has an independence ambition.
They know that raising taxes will delay independence for 100 years.
The SNP have nothing to gain from resolving greater devolution as it will be the kiss of death to independence.
Delay, delay, blame the vile english, more delay, more hatred of the English.

In May the landslide will bring a truely one party state when the demands for independence can gain overwhelming momentum.
It all depends upon momentum and a Brexit vote in June can only help with the hate and faux anger towards the english. But when brexit is rejected then the SNP might be in a little difficulty : that's where the all important hate the english campaign becomes all important