Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

CLAPTON

elantan wrote: »

Think Norway etc is doing slightly better than that ... but let's not let facts spoil the word pictures

very Scot should indeed learn about Norway before the next referendum

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

elantan wrote: »

That's where it gets really interesting

What I would LOVE to see is the UK as a whole voting to leave the EU... Scotland voting to stay so being dragged out ... causing a second indy ref ... Scotland voting for indy and being out of the EU... then being able to negotiate terms that suit us ... maybe EFTA or something

So independence and no EU ... there's a few of us that quite like that idea


Ahhh Tis the stuff of dreams that is

So you want to see political and economic carnage because you think it'll get you another indyref.

Remind me again why you think it's worth it to see tens of thousands (or perhaps even hundreds of thousands) of people losing their jobs and prosperity, and for some also their life savings and houses....

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

elantan wrote: »

What is so wrong with wanting better ? Shouldn't we all want better ?

That's why most of us voted to stay in the UK.

Because we believe that is the way to achieve 'better' outcomes for the majority.

But putting that aside for the moment, what exactly do you think would be 'better' outside the UK, not this vague sentiment that things simply must be better because a politician in HR gets to make the decision rather than a politician in WM.

Specifically what is it that you think Scotland could or would actually do differently that would make the lives of most people 'better'?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

And as this was ignored the first time round, perhaps Shakey, Zag or elantan could explain what is so unique about Scotland that it wouldn't suffer the same fate as Catalonia...

With businesses and jobs flooding out the door, just as we were warned would happen here if indy became a realistic prospect.

As I recall those warnings were rubbished by the separatists at the time both here and in Spain, yet it's now happening to them exactly as predicted.

The Catalan independence drive is causing hundreds of businesses to leave the region out of fear of political and legal instability.

So far this year, 683 companies have departed Catalonia – including the chain Derby Hotels, multinational Suez and agri-food giant Valls Companys – with many of them transferring to Madrid. Together the firms represent combined sales of over €1.5 billion.

According to ratings agency Axesor, 3,286 businesses have left Catalonia since 2012, when the separatist drive began gaining traction.

The drain does not come as a complete surprise, given that various business leaders had repeatedly warned about the risk of continuing down the path of unilateral independence.

http://elpais.com/elpais/2015/11/23/inenglish/1448273581_496946.html

Mistermeaner

Just out of interest when did 'scotland' become a nation and who decided it's border?

Unrelated question but how do pro - Indy people think the unionists would behave and should be handled in the event of independence?

Generali

Mistermeaner wrote: »

Just out of interest when did 'scotland' become a nation and who decided it's border?

Unrelated question but how do pro - Indy people think the unionists would behave and should be handled in the event of independence?

A nation is a group of people with something in common (Zulu nation, gay nation) whereas a country is a political sovereign.

I think it's undeniable that there is an English nation, Welsh nation, Yorkshire nation and so on. Scotland and England aren't countries however.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

It's extremely hard to see what would be better for an independent Scotland. Maybe in 1979, not that it was on offer, as the oil was still there but now the oil is in serious decline at almost any price and it's highly unlikely that most of the oil that is left in Scotland now will ever see the light of day due to climate change.

An independent Scotland would be slashing welfare health and education spending as spending would have to be collapsed just about immediately causing a terrible recession that would likely take decades to unwind. And all for what? A self-serving elite sitting in Holyrood rather than Westminster.

This entire post is a rant with assumptions and presumptions peppered all through it. With no facts to back it up. Just your own opinion. You should state this before getting carried away.

As we have seen from the SNP's period in power in Scotland the SNP has members who are venal and corrupt, has policies that haven't been thought through and those that are just plain wrong.

In your opinion.

There's nothing unique in that, I don't try to claim that the Tories have a special magic that keeps their fingers out of the till. What I do recognise is that the United Kingdom is a country that has brought together disparate nations over 1500 years and united them into a highly successful country. I find it terribly sad that a group simply want to walk away from that despite the obvious loss it will cause them.

I find it incredible frankly.

It's past it's sell by date. The two countries politics are diverging at accelerating rates to the point where very soon, the situation will become untenable.. Labour has paid, and is currently paying the heaviest price for that. Politically, imo there is no real way back I'm afraid. Labour have tried to move left ( which is more in tune with Scottish voters ) with disasterous results so far. If Corbyn resigns and the party pull rightwards again under a new leader... to where they were before the election ? Scotland won't follow. And the SNP are likely to become even more of a focal point for disaffected previous Labour voters.

Scottish Labour will either have to wearily content themselves over the next decade with vying for a poor second place with the Tories. Or else wake up to what's happening...Resetting their polices to include either independence or else start proposing and fighting for, much, much more in the way of political and economic powers for Scotland.

We're at the point ( copyright WeeGingerDug ) where Scots have voted out just about every unionist Westminster MP out of Scottish politics. The next step is simply to take Scottish politics and MP's out of Westminster.

Generali

My post isn't a rant. You need a dictionary STD.

As for the trite comment that Westminster has been taken out of Scotland, well that ship has sailed. You wanted independence and your fellow countrymen voted against it. Live with it.

Shakethedisease

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

And as this was ignored the first time round, perhaps Shakey, Zag or elantan could explain what is so unique about Scotland that it wouldn't suffer the same fate as Catalonia...

With businesses and jobs flooding out the door, just as we were warned would happen here if indy became a realistic prospect.

As I recall those warnings were rubbished by the separatists at the time both here and in Spain, yet it's now happening to them exactly as predicted.


http://elpais.com/elpais/2015/11/23/inenglish/1448273581_496946.html

Is the newspaper you lifted the stats from independence leaning or against ? I say that article looks and sounds like the Daily Record at any point from 2011 to Sept 2014.

Oh.. never mind I looked it up myself.

Today the newspaper's position with regard to the challenges of Catalan independence movement is strongly in favor of maintaining the territorial integrity of Spain and following the legal processes of the Constitution

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Pa%C3%ADs

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Is the newspaper you lifted the stats from independence leaning or against ? I say that article looks and sounds like the Daily Record at any point from 2011 to Sept 2014.

Oh.. never mind I looked it up myself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Pa%C3%ADs

Ah yes, if you can't attack the message attack the messenger. :money: