Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

wotsthat

Anyone getting less tax credits is going to blame 'Westminster' so why would the SNP do anything? Raising taxes to make up the difference would likely be unpopular and it's not as if the Scottish people are a priority for the SNP - all good news - it's a step towards independence.

Generali

elantan wrote: »

There's many reasons really ... the cuts are Tory cuts made from WM and whilst we are offsetting the bedroom tax at a huge cost we can't and shouldn't offset every cut, we don't have a bottomless pit the money we use for offsetting the bedroom tax could be used elsewhere but it is sacrificed to offset a tax ( to use the commonly recognised term) so things are suffering already, add in the working tax credits and that's a huge cutback for other things that is just unsustainable IMHO

Surely if the Scottish people vote for more money to be spent and the Scottish Government can tax more and spend more than that could be promised. No?

The powers aren't with the Scottish Government in practical terms just yet AIUI but it wouldn't be unreasonable to say, "We will raise taxes and spend more if the power to do so is at our disposal as promised".

Ultimately higher spending has to mean higher taxes on someone and these changes that the Tories are putting through at the SNP's behest are allowing the Scottish Government to tax and spend in a realistic way. TBH I think that this is a great way to stitch up the SNP (and Scottish Labour).

If there is one thing that Thatcher taught us it's that people will vote for spending increases but not for tax increases except on other people. Poll after poll showed people were happy to pay more tax for a more generous welfare state. General Election after General Election showed they were lying. It took Mr Blair to agree to keep to some extremely strict Tory tax and spending plans, that I do not believe that the Tories had any plan to stick to, for a Labour Government to be voted in.

The Tories are setting up the Scotland Bill perfectly so that taxes need to rise on everyone if they are going to rise. They will increase more on rich people so that passes the 'progressive' test but increase on every taxpayer (voter basically) they will.

It leaves the leftist politician in a tough position. You want to spend more? Great. Tax more. They're even taking away the infrastructure fig leaf ("People of Scotland, we can make the country richer by building a new road/power station/telecoms network despite having been proven time and time again to be completely crap at that.") by allowing borrowing for physical infrastructure.

It's a common problem: you assume your enemy is an idiot because they don't agree with you and all reasonable people do agree with you. Then all of a sudden you are the fool.

CLAPTON

elantan wrote: »

There's many reasons really ... the cuts are Tory cuts made from WM and whilst we are offsetting the bedroom tax at a huge cost we can't and shouldn't offset every cut, we don't have a bottomless pit the money we use for offsetting the bedroom tax could be used elsewhere but it is sacrificed to offset a tax ( to use the commonly recognised term) so things are suffering already, add in the working tax credits and that's a huge cutback for other things that is just unsustainable IMHO

the 'huge' cost would be exactly the same if you had full autonomy or independence

why could you afford it then but not now?

what was the SNP plan : simply to borrow more or was there never a SNP plan?


and actually the Tories are continuing to borrow each and every

day

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Surely if the Scottish people vote for more money to be spent and the Scottish Government can tax more and spend more than that could be promised. No?

The powers aren't with the Scottish Government in practical terms just yet AIUI but it wouldn't be unreasonable to say, "We will raise taxes and spend more if the power to do so is at our disposal as promised".

Ultimately higher spending has to mean higher taxes on someone and these changes that the Tories are putting through at the SNP's behest are allowing the Scottish Government to tax and spend in a realistic way. TBH I think that this is a great way to stitch up the SNP (and Scottish Labour).

If there is one thing that Thatcher taught us it's that people will vote for spending increases but not for tax increases except on other people. Poll after poll showed people were happy to pay more tax for a more generous welfare state. General Election after General Election showed they were lying. It took Mr Blair to agree to keep to some extremely strict Tory tax and spending plans, that I do not believe that the Tories had any plan to stick to, for a Labour Government to be voted in.

The Tories are setting up the Scotland Bill perfectly so that taxes need to rise on everyone if they are going to rise. They will increase more on rich people so that passes the 'progressive' test but increase on every taxpayer (voter basically) they will.

It leaves the leftist politician in a tough position. You want to spend more? Great. Tax more. They're even taking away the infrastructure fig leaf ("People of Scotland, we can make the country richer by building a new road/power station/telecoms network despite having been proven time and time again to be completely crap at that.") by allowing borrowing for physical infrastructure.

It's a common problem: you assume your enemy is an idiot because they don't agree with you and all reasonable people do agree with you. Then all of a sudden you are the fool.

It doesn't matter what the SNP are proposing re tax credit cuts.. ( again they want them fully devolved ). Reversing them, in full, is a Scottish Labour proposal. And it should be up to them to outline fully, what they propose to do. So far vague answers about not cutting APD and raising the top rate of tax are pie in the sky.

It's a Labour policy that has to be paid for. And if they get into Scottish Govt, then they need to lay out why not cutting APD will bring in 250/400m extra. Kezia has already admitted that raising the top rate of tax might bring in 0. And not cutting a tax when the budget is already fully allocated, means they'll have to find the cash elsewhere.

That the SNP is making headlines about hypothetical tax credits cuts next year, for not doing something Labour proposes it might do two years into the future.. to me, Scottish media has gone totally tonto.

Osborne better not do too much of a u-turn.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It doesn't matter what the SNP are proposing re tax credit cuts.. ( again they want them fully devolved ).

it does matter what the SNP would do but obviously it's judged unwise to tell the voters of Scotland


if the SNP want a high level of benefits for scotland then they should tell the Scottish voter how this would be paid for (either in a fully devolved or independent scotland)


obviously they would be mad to tell the scots the truth and so will continue to blame the English for not giving Scotland more money from the English money tree.

Generali

Shakecoursethedisease wrote: »

It doesn't matter what the SNP are proposing re tax credit cuts.. ( again they want them fully devolved ). Reversing them, in full, is a Scottish Labour proposal. And it should be up to them to outline fully, what they propose to do. So far vague answers about not cutting APD and raising the top rate of tax are pie in the sky.

It's a Labour policy that has to be paid for. And if they get into Scottish Govt, then they need to lay out why not cutting APD will bring in 250/400m extra. Kezia has already admitted that raising the top rate of tax might bring in 0. And not cutting a tax when the budget is already fully allocated, means they'll have to find the cash elsewhere.

That the SNP is making headlines about hypothetical tax credits cuts next year, for not doing something Labour proposes it might do two years into the future.. to me, Scottish media has gone totally tonto.

Osborne better not do too much of a u-turn.

LOL, yes of course the SNP is impotent in the face of the slashed spending from those English bast ards. An SNP can never use the powers to increase taxes because the obvious point that independence leads to comparative poverty will become clear.


The SNP is starting to get what they wanted and it leaves them in a state: can't increase taxes because it'll trash the economy but can't increase spending because they can't afford it.

Hopefully the Scots will finally get it. If they don't then independence and a century of poverty awaits.

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Osborne better not do too much of a u-turn.

The implementation of change will simply be slower. The only objective is to cut the unsustainable budget deficit. Politicians of all parties are simply being deceptive if they don't explain how the UK as a whole can live within it's means.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

LOL, yes of course the SNP is impotent in the face of the slashed spending from those English bast ards. An SNP can never use the powers to increase taxes because the obvious point that independence leads to comparative poverty will become clear.

The SNP is starting to get what they wanted and it leaves them in a state: can't increase taxes because it'll trash the economy but can't increase spending because they can't afford it.

Hopefully the Scots will finally get it. If they don't then independence and a century of poverty awaits.

No. You're jumping the gun along with Scottish Labour. That's my point. Osborne will have to announce what he's doing with tax credits first ? The everyone will know where they stand and if tax raises etc are indeed needed to 'reverse' tax credits.

There's very little point in the SNP putting out proposals to raise taxes in order to mitigate cuts that at the moment, are completely hypothetical until 25th Nov. APD powers aren't due to come into Scottish Govt hands until 2018, and 50p tax raises on the top band are not possible until 2017.

What happens in the interim to those losing out ?

The SNP want it all Generali. What's happening now is unacceptable. BetterTogether ride again with Labour and the Tories tag teaming in order to have Scottish tax payers paying twice for Conservative policies, and for Labour in an attempt to stop an SNP majority in May. The media have lost any pretence at balance.

Situation normal for Scottish politics then.

And like I said, Osborne is coming under a lot of pressure to tone the whole tax credits thing down. When you've got Tim Montgomerie retweeting stuff like this....it's a policy even Tories want a complete rethink on.

Lots of options for raising the funds to reverse the tax cuts #taxcredits

Shakethedisease

Thrugelmir wrote: »

The implementation of change will simply be slower. The only objective is to cut the unsustainable budget deficit. Politicians of all parties are simply being deceptive if they don't explain how the UK as a whole can live within it's means.

If he does a big u-turn, delays or waters things down to the point 'it doesn't seem so bad'... then in the context of Scottish politics. Labour have nothing else much else to work with in the run up to next May. They've made reversing HUGE tax credit cuts, or goading the SNP into it their central policy... If they're not so huge after all, or if Westminster itself under pressure implements some sort of mitigating or transitional phase... and the SNP go 'oh, ok then'.. they're stuffed.

Generali

Scottish taxpayers paying twice! !!!!!! they don't even pay once.