Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

skintmacflint

Generali wrote: »

If you vote Labour however, there is a serious [STRIKE]risk[/STRIKE] chance that they will win. How can you do that if you have no idea what you are voting for?

Not sure myself at the minute either. Ian Murray Scotland's only MP said on Sunday Politics Scotland , there would have to be a conflict resolution put in place. But at present Scottish Labour MPs would take the Labour Whip. Unless like him on Trident they refuse to take the Labour Whip.

He went on to say, where Scottish Labour take a different position, they would need to use that resolution to resolve it. Said these type of decisions are made all around the world , where you have autonomous and federal parties. It was nothing new.

Admittedly I don't know much about this area.

Shakethedisease

skintmacflint wrote: »

From the blog by Dan Vevers, Generali kindly provided the correct link to on my behalf

' people argue that social media doesn't constitute reality. Of course it does, it's people who use it. Indeed as a conduit for allowing people to say what they really think It arguably provides more insight than debating with strangers in a pub.

Are people so certain , that the unpleasant febrile atmosphere that can easily be discovered within the pro-independence networks on line, does not , or won't manifest itself on the streets or in real life'

I rest my case, courtesy to young Dan.

It's not real life. People don't go round living their lives through 'topics'. And in social media people only tend to follow and interact with things that really interest them and ignore the rest. Hence opinion gets concentrated and magnified in those areas.

I can assure you that in day to day life no-one would know I am an SNP member. I don't talk politics much. There's simply no occasion to do so at the gym, or on the school run, work etc. People that know me are far more likely to associate myself with being a huge Depeche Mode fan than anything else.:o Twitter is VERY different from Facebook ( which is all about friends, daily lives, events and liking things ). Twitter is far more contentious, politicised and fast moving. So you can't even qualify 'social media' as one thing either.

Neither are 'real life'.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Labour really need to sort out how Scottish Labour is going to relate to rUK Labour with respect to policy promises. At present there are two completely separate and opposed policies to Trident and to welfare too it would seem with Scottish Labour saying that they support one thing and England and Wales Labour saying that they support another.

How the heck can you vote in a General Election for Labour on that basis unless they are genuinely going to split into two parties? What exactly am I getting on Trident? Does it depend on whether I'm North or South of the border and so my representative will vote in line with local policy or something else perhaps like the individual preferences of the MP or which side of the bed Mr Corbyn got out on that morning?

What about collective cabinet responsibility, how does that work?

Remember, this isn't about coalition Government. If you vote SNP or for most parties contesting a general election then you know full well that they can't form a majority Government as they aren't contesting a majority of seats! Even the most ardent supporter of the Something New party or the Guildford Green Belt Group would understand that a coalition would push through parts of their program but they would have to compromise on other parts.

If you vote Labour however, there is a serious [STRIKE]risk[/STRIKE] chance that they will win. How can you do that if you have no idea what you are voting for?

It's a total mess. Scottish Labour are all about May 16 right now. Trident and other issues imo will disappear into the ether as soon as that's over. Kezia's remarkable conversion from pro-Trident a few weeks ago and all through the ref campaign, to anti-Trident yesterday won't go unnoticed.. and it doesn't come across as very trustworthy. The same goes for a lot of her MSP's.. who also all through the referendum were very staunchly pro-Trident.

Shakethedisease

skintmacflint wrote: »

McWhirter simply asked the point of asking for more powers if a devolved Scottish government won't use the powers it already has, and is due to get. On what he obviously thinks is an important issue.

As far as I am aware, it could be complex with possibly requiring high cost systems and admin required. The question remains whether a devolved SG feels the effect versus the cost is important enough .

Maybe Scotland needs to be asked if it feels tax credit loss and associated cost to offset , is more important than receiving some of the current extras Scotland currently enjoys. Or whether extra tax should be raised?

Ian Murray Labour was pretty clear he didn't care how these tax credits were offset, as long as it was achieved. Be that via Osbourne, or the existing Scottish government. Don't imagine anyone affected by them will be either. I'm guessing some form of agreement has been reached with Corbyn on what goes into a Scottish labour manifesto.

If still needed that is. Until the Autumn statement it's all pretty hypothetical as Murray said. He also accepted it might not even be necessary. Otherwise he is finished. Seems more than high risk if he's wrong.

The Scottish Labour conference managed despite all odds according to Brian Taylor to have the most authentic energetic debate on various subjects , he's seen since SNP discussed the issue of joining NATO.

Regardless of my opinion of Labour in recent years , I don't begrudge them that.

McWhirter didn't ask even the vaguest of questions of Scottish Labour and their policy. It was left to others to do so.. If this had been the SNP announcing they'd 'reverse tax credits'... I think we can all rest assured that Labour would've been all over it screeching about 'where the money was coming from/black hole in finances/uncosted/etc/'. No reason why Scottish Labour shouldn't be asked the same questions. But they weren't. Dugdale got a free ride as per from the media and McWhirter, imo got a little carried away with the idea that 'Labour was back'.

However, and am sure Scottish Labour will be supporting this to the hilt.. the SNP have just added an amendment to the Scotland Bill stating that tax credit powers should be devolved.. in full.

This now puts Scottish Labour in the position of either supporting the amendment, and urging UK Labour MP's to vote it through... or else not supporting it, and looking a bit daft still calling on the SNP to reverse tax credit cuts...when they themselves have voted against the powers to do so. All a week after they were all over the newspapers saying Labour peers had stopped tax credit cuts anyway. And Osborne still has to say what he's going to do before anyone knows what's happening with tax credits at all ! As you rightly say... is all hypothetical.

By the time it's all sorted out and the powers are there in 2017/2018.. tax credits may well heading into being a thing of the past anyway and Universal Credit may be rolled out further. Ms Dugdale hasn't said what all those families will do in the meantime until 2017/2018 and these powers appear.

As stated before. It's all about May 16 right now. They're all politicing and bashing each other like mad.

The SNP has called for the UK Government to devolve working tax credits and child tax credits in full as Scottish Labour challenged the Scottish Government to back plans to protect Scots from controversial cuts. SNP MPs have lodged amendments to the Scotland Bill that they say would enable the Scottish Parliament to set its own tax credit system including eligibility, thresholds and tapers.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/1331953-snp-call-for-uk-government-to-devolve-working-tax-credits-in-full/

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

McWhirter didn't ask even the vaguest of questions of Scottish Labour and their policy. It was left to others to do so.. If this had been the SNP announcing they'd 'reverse tax credits'... I think we can all rest assured that Labour would've been all over it screeching about 'where the money was coming from/black hole in finances/uncosted/etc/'. No reason why Scottish Labour shouldn't be asked the same questions. But they weren't. Dugdale got a free ride as per from the media and McWhirter, imo got a little carried away with the idea that 'Labour was back'.

However, and am sure Scottish Labour will be supporting this to the hilt.. the SNP have just added an amendment to the Scotland Bill stating that tax credit powers should be devolved.. in full.

This now puts Scottish Labour in the position of either supporting the amendment, and urging UK Labour MP's to vote it through... or else not supporting it, and looking a bit daft still calling on the SNP to reverse tax credit cuts...when they themselves have voted against the powers to do so. All a week after they were all over the newspapers saying Labour peers had stopped tax credit cuts anyway. And Osborne still has to say what he's going to do before anyone knows what's happening with tax credits at all ! As you rightly say... is all hypothetical.

By the time it's all sorted out and the powers are there in 2017/2018.. tax credits may well heading into being a thing of the past anyway and Universal Credit may be rolled out further. Ms Dugdale hasn't said what all those families will do in the meantime until 2017/2018 and these powers appear.

As stated before. It's all about May 16 right now. They're all politicing and bashing each other like mad.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/1331953-snp-call-for-uk-government-to-devolve-working-tax-credits-in-full/

I agree, labour's polices should be scrutinised in the same way as the SNPs
so basically not atall

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

I agree, labour's polices should be scrutinised in the same way as the SNPs
so basically not atall

If you say so. I disagree. However, in their desperate chase to catch the SNP in the polls.. Scottish Labour are failing to recognise that they themselves are now more and more defining their own politics in terms of 'Scotland v's Westminster'.
The Tax credits thing and Trident over the last few days are excellent examples. Scottish Labour, now shouting from the rooftops that a) Scotland doesn't want nukes that Westminster will 'impose' and b ) Scottish politics is now a contest to see who can negate Westminster cuts the best.

It won't end well for them. Difficult to justify a union that you keep calling on other parties to mitigate and compensate financially against.

Kezia Dugdale ‏@kdugdalemsp 2 hrs2 hours ago BBC News - SNP to oppose Labour tax credit plan http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34720846 … <--- They've made their choice and it's cheap flights over families

Kezia is only talking about Scots families above remember. What happened to the union ? :cool:

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

If you say so. I disagree. However, in their desperate chase to catch the SNP in the polls.. Scottish Labour are failing to recognise that they themselves are now more and more defining their own politics in terms of 'Scotland v's Westminster'.
The Tax credits thing and Trident over the last few days are excellent examples. Scottish Labour, now shouting from the rooftops that a) Scotland doesn't want nukes that Westminster will 'impose' and b ) Scottish politics is now a contest to see who can negate Westminster cuts the best.

It won't end well for them. Difficult to justify a union that you keep calling on other parties to mitigate and compensate financially against.

Kezia is only talking about Scots families above remember. What happened to the union ? :cool:

the great success of the SNP is that it has caused the scots to define themselves as being different to the other people of the UK and so both Labour and Tories will follow.

Just like certain extremist have to say 'if allah wills' in every single sentence, the word 'scotland' has increasingly to be included in every sentence that any politician's speech north of the border

A huge success for national/racial differentiation.

Better separation than increasing destructive arguments : roll on May 16 and a new referendum so the poisonous situation can be resolved one way or the other.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

the great success of the SNP is that it has caused the scots to define themselves as being different to the other people of the UK and so both Labour and Tories will follow.

Just like certain extremist have to say 'if allah wills' in every single sentence, the word 'scotland' has increasingly to be included in every sentence that any politician's speech north of the border

A huge success for national/racial differentiation.

Better separation than increasing destructive arguments : roll on May 16 and a new referendum so the poisonous situation can be resolved one way or the other.

Labour laid very strong foundations many years ago re Westminster during the Thatcher years. Reaping what they sowed now I'm afraid.

to Scottish labour earlier on Twitter, just about sums the general feeling at the moment.

You wanted to be part of the British state. Now you want Scottish taxpayers to pay the price of your choice.

Would you say we're in strange times when Scottish parties headline policies are about curbing WM impact? It's a mess.

Why are we in the business of mitigating Tory cuts at behest of SLabour politicking?

So I understand this fully Labour want every Scottish payer to pay a yet uncalculated sum to mitigate every decision taken by a WM govt?

Yes. And then blame it on the Scottish Government

As you say. Roll on May. At least there will be a few years free of elections and referendums after that. Whatever happens.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Labour laid very strong foundations many years ago re Westminster during the Thatcher years. Reaping what they sowed now I'm afraid.

to Scottish labour earlier on Twitter, just about sums the general feeling at the moment. As you say. Roll on May. At least there will be a few years free of elections and referendums after that. Whatever happens.

yes I understand how stupid and divisive the quotes are.

what scotland/SNP wants is the UK to borrow more (and tax more) and give it to scotland without scotland paying more tax.


the scots seem to think that if they were 'free' then there would magically be money available without further taxation and without benefits cuts (in fact increases).

so yes roll on scottish independence, when you can live in the real world and make the tough choices whether to tax and spend more or not
(obviously for the first 50 years you will blame the english but the new generations will slowly understand it is their own choices).
after 100 years you can be as well off as the Irish.

skintmacflint

Shakethedisease wrote: »

McWhirter didn't ask even the vaguest of questions of Scottish Labour and their policy. It was left to others to do so.. If this had been the SNP announcing they'd 'reverse tax credits'... I think we can all rest assured that Labour would've been all over it screeching about 'where the money was coming from/black hole in finances/uncosted/etc/'. No reason why Scottish Labour shouldn't be asked the same questions. But they weren't. Dugdale got a free ride as per from the media and McWhirter, imo got a little carried away with the idea that 'Labour was back'.

However, and am sure Scottish Labour will be supporting this to the hilt.. the SNP have just added an amendment to the Scotland Bill stating that tax credit powers should be devolved.. in full.

This now puts Scottish Labour in the position of either supporting the amendment, and urging UK Labour MP's to vote it through... or else not supporting it, and looking a bit daft still calling on the SNP to reverse tax credit cuts...when they themselves have voted against the powers to do so. All a week after they were all over the newspapers saying Labour peers had stopped tax credit cuts anyway. And Osborne still has to say what he's going to do before anyone knows what's happening with tax credits at all ! As you rightly say... is all hypothetical.

By the time it's all sorted out and the powers are there in 2017/2018.. tax credits may well heading into being a thing of the past anyway and Universal Credit may be rolled out further. Ms Dugdale hasn't said what all those families will do in the meantime until 2017/2018 and these powers appear.

As stated before. It's all about May 16 right now. They're all politicing and bashing each other like mad.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/1331953-snp-call-for-uk-government-to-devolve-working-tax-credits-in-full/

Except that's not strictly true is it, as McWhirter in a Herald article commented he'd no idea if Labour costings were credible, or even if anyone would believe them? AFAIUI MSM and orher parties don't generally start real scrutiny of what is put forward at Conferences. That would begine once manifesto's are out. Albeit I see some social media bloggers have gotten off to a head start on this. But as we both agree it's all hypothetical for now.

I heard about SNP's amendment, to devolve full power, and also it being suggested it's a gesture to delay implementation. But not sure I agree Scotish Labour now have to support it or lose face, or even that they are at odds with Labour Uk on this.

Smith agreed the UK would retain the responsibility for guaranteeing a set amount of welfare being paid out across the entire UK, and for which the UK government have budgeted. It also agreed to give a SG the power to increase, create in any way it sees fit anything over and above that, as long the SG were prepared to find the funding for it. After that national payment is made. With I believe the exception of temporary national policy welfare sanctions ?

Same applies to tax credits. Labour UK are opposing the cuts in Westminster along with Lib Dems, and SNP , for the entire UK. Scottish Labour as far as I can see are in general agreement with this policy, therefore are simply saying as they will have the powers, and allegedly can find the funding for it, they will offset them in Scotland, if they are pushed through eventually at Westminster.

Now I could be wrong, as it's all hypothetical . But the level of detail of these powers and all this will be clarified in detail very shortly , as long as SNP don't delay things further with amendments. And as SNP have now said if it is in their power to offset them , they will , I'll leave it there.